nato secretary general, Jens Stoltenberg admits and boasts about nato provoking Putin to invade

[Left Coast]

As when Americans landed in Sicily...in 1943.
They told us: but you guys side with the Nazis ..so we had to land

We had been openly at war (a little thing called World War II you might want to look up) for 2 years at that point.

Any other false equivalencies you'd like to make?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

You don't see how bringing missiles up to the Russian border nearest to Moscow is provocative? Interesting.

So you believe that Russia should be well within it's rights to dictate to other nations what alliances they may enter into? Do you grant the same right to every other nation on earth?

 

[Estro Felino]

We had been openly at war (a little thing called World War II you might want to look up) for 2 years at that point.

Any other false equivalencies you'd like to make?

All right...but I recall we surrendered.
I really don't understand why the Ukrainians shouldn't come to terms with Russia, as well.

 

[Left Coast]

All right...but I recall we surrendered.
I really don't understand why the Ukrainians shouldn't come to terms with Russia, as well.

"Come to terms" meaning surrender and get annexed as a vassal state of Russia? Yeah, pass. They've already been a Soviet satellite once, they're done with that.

The terms ought to be: hey Russia, this war started because you invaded. If you want the war to end, leave. Pretty basic.

 

[lukethethird]

Ukraine became an independent country, not Putin's to red line.

I see Russia expanding into Europe...
Russian-occupied territories - Wikipedia

Cuba is an independent country and it was the US's to redline during the Cuban missile crisis. Both countries, the Soviet Union and the US backed off, as a result Cuba was not invaded, a nuclear holocaust was diverted, but this time around cooler heads did not prevail and here we are with no lesson learned from the Cuban missile crisis.

 

[lukethethird]

So you believe that Russia should be well within it's rights to dictate to other nations what alliances they may enter into? Do you grant the same right to every other nation on earth?

What leader of a country would tolerate missiles on their border? The US nor Russia tolerate that. It doesn't happen in the real world, whether Russia, China, US, it just doesn't happen. So here we have nato wanting to go into Ukraine so that they can place missiles on Russia's border and you expect Russia to sit back and just chill? The world doesn't work that way, evidenced by the fact that Russia sent their troops in as a result of the mere threat. No surprise there, what did you expect would happen should Ukraine join nato? Western military analysts have warned of nato expansion eastward causing Ukraine to be the battlefield for decades and it has fallen on deaf ears.

 

[ChristineM]

Cuba is an independent country and it was the US's to redline during the Cuban missile crisis. Both countries, the Soviet Union and the US backed off, as a result Cuba was not invaded, a nuclear holocaust was diverted, but this time around cooler heads did not prevail and here we are with no lesson learned from the Cuban missile crisis.

Yes, this time hot head Putin invaded.

 

[The Hammer]

So a totalitarian makes ultimatums, and NATO is supposed to just acquiesce?

 

[lukethethird]

Yes, this time hot head Putin invaded.

Yes, he did because he was stupid enough to fall into a trap. Nato, which is really the US, knew that he would, I knew he would because western military analysts warned of this for decades. Now the US can weaken Russia at the expense of the people of Ukraine, and billions of tax dollars are flowing into the hands of weapon manufacturers and dealers.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

What leader of a country would tolerate missiles on their border? The US nor Russia tolerate that. It doesn't happen in the real world, whether Russia, China, US, it just doesn't happen. So here we have nato wanting to go into Ukraine so that they can place missiles on Russia's border and you expect Russia to sit back and just chill? The world doesn't work that way, evidenced by the fact that Russia sent their troops in as a result of the mere threat. No surprise there, what did you expect would happen should Ukraine join nato? Western military analysts have warned of nato expansion eastward causing Ukraine to be the battlefield for decades and it has fallen on deaf ears.

Does Russia have any missiles? Does it border any countries? Oh, wait -- it borders Ukraine, doesn't it? And it's sending some of its missiles to Belarus, which also borders Ukraine, isn't it? Does France have missiles, or Germany, or Israel? Do any of them border any other countries. Oh, and don't China, and India, and the UK, Pakistan and North Korea? Are you certain they don't border any other countries?

And for the record -- it is Ukraine that desperately wants to apply to join NATO, and so far NATO has said "no."

 

[ChristineM]

What leader of a country would tolerate missiles on their border? The US nor Russia tolerate that. It doesn't happen in the real world, whether Russia, China, US, it just doesn't happen. So here we have nato wanting to go into Ukraine so that they can place missiles on Russia's border and you expect Russia to sit back and just chill? The world doesn't work that way, evidenced by the fact that Russia sent their troops in as a result of the mere threat. No surprise there, what did you expect would happen should Ukraine join nato? Western military analysts have warned of nato expansion eastward causing Ukraine to be the battlefield for decades and it has fallen on deaf ears.

So the Russian missiles at Belarus don't count? Ok

 

[ChristineM]

Yes, he did because he was stupid enough to fall into a trap. Nato, which is really the US, knew that he would, I knew he would because western military analysts warned of this for decades. Now the US can weaken Russia at the expense of the people of Ukraine, and billions of tax dollars are flowing into the hands of weapon manufacturers and dealers.

Or greedy enough

 

[exchemist]

I am trying to play devil's advocate here, what world leader would tolerate their adversaries bringing missiles up to their border? Playing devil's advocate does not make me a Putin apologist for those of you who are intolerant of questions.

Putin made it clear decades ago that Ukraine was a red line as any Russian leader would, nato knew this and didn't care and now here we are. Nato is a war treaty as opposed to a peace treaty and now appears to be nothing more than a self fulfilling prophecy.

I never saw Russia expanding back into Europe, in fact many countries broke away from what was the Soviet Union peacefully for the most part. Some people go so far as to claim that Russia wants to expand all the way to Berlin, based on what, I don't know. Yes, wrong to invade Ukraine, I get that much, but what brought us to this? Now that Russia is a capitalist system as opposed to communist, is the competition just too much for the west to bear? Is that why nato expanded east?

That is a different topic from the subject of this thread, which was your allegations that (1) Stoltenberg provoked Russia and (2) boasted about it.

Neither contention has been supported.

As for why NATO expanded east, you are overlooking one crucial point about that, as all Putin apologists do, which is that countries apply to join, of their own volition. There is no strategy to expand NATO and threaten Russia: what happens is former East Bloc countries sense (quite correctly, as it happens) that Russia is a threat to them and they ask to join the alliance as an insurance policy. To deny them would be to throw them to the mercy of Russia. That cannot be justified.

 

[lukethethird]

That is a different topic from the subject of this thread, which was your allegations that (1) Stoltenberg provoked Russia and (2) boasted about it.

Neither contention has been supported.

As for why NATO expanded east, you are overlooking one crucial point about that, as all Putin apologists do, which is that countries apply to join, of their own volition. There is no strategy to expand NATO and threaten Russia: what happens is former East Bloc countries sense (quite correctly, as it happens) that Russia is a threat to them and they ask to join the alliance as an insurance policy. To deny them would be to throw them to the mercy of Russia. That cannot be justified.

Putin apologists?

 

[Estro Felino]

"Come to terms" meaning surrender and get annexed as a vassal state of Russia? Yeah, pass. They've already been a Soviet satellite once, they're done with that.

The terms ought to be: hey Russia, this war started because you invaded. If you want the war to end, leave. Pretty basic.

Not at all. I mean: to renounce those five regions, including Crimea.
They will never become a Russian satellite, since they are destined to join the EU.
So...

 

[lukethethird]

OK, I get it, Russia is such an evil empire because it was for a time a communist state, and one day it's leader woke up and decided to attack Ukraine, and the world was shocked to learn of this "unprovoked" attack. There is no sense in sharing the blame for this, it's black and white, and that's how the world works.

 

[Estro Felino]

So a totalitarian makes ultimatums, and NATO is supposed to just acquiesce?

Yes.
If it's a peace-keeping organization.
If it's a warlike organization...no

 

[Estro Felino]

That is a different topic from the subject of this thread, which was your allegations that (1) Stoltenberg provoked Russia and (2) boasted about it.

Neither contention has been supported.

As for why NATO expanded east, you are overlooking one crucial point about that, as all Putin apologists do, which is that countries apply to join, of their own volition. There is no strategy to expand NATO and threaten Russia: what happens is former East Bloc countries sense (quite correctly, as it happens) that Russia is a threat to them and they ask to join the alliance as an insurance policy. To deny them would be to throw them to the mercy of Russia. That cannot be justified.

So if the NATO want to be considered reliable, they will need to sign a document where they attest they will never use the NATO expansion to attack the subjects of the Russian Federation, and to rob Russia's resources.

They sign....I will be convinced. Quid pro quo.

 

[Left Coast]

Not at all. I mean: to renounce those five regions, including Crimea.
They will never become a Russian satellite, since they are destined to join the EU.
So...

That would teach Russia that it can simply invade its neighbors at will and take things over whenever it wants. That would be a bad message to send, both morally and strategically.

If Russia and its simps want war to end, they should encourage Putin to pull out.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

The mainstream media parroting that this invasion was "unprovoked" contradicts Jens Stoltenberg's talking points:


nato secretary general, Jens Stoltenberg admits and boasts about nato provoking Putin to invade here: https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_218172.htm?selectedLocale=en

"The background was that President Putin declared in the autumn of 2021, and actually sent a draft treaty that they wanted NATO to sign, to promise no more NATO enlargement. That was what he sent us. And was a pre-condition for not invade Ukraine. Of course we didn't sign that.

The opposite happened. He wanted us to sign that promise, never to enlarge NATO. He wanted us to remove our military infrastructure in all Allies that have joined NATO since 1997, meaning half of NATO, all the Central and Eastern Europe, we should remove NATO from that part of our Alliance, introducing some kind of B, or second class membership. We rejected that.

So he went to war to prevent NATO, more NATO, close to his borders. He has got the exact opposite. He has got more NATO presence in eastern part of the Alliance and he has also seen that Finland has already joined the Alliance and Sweden will soon be a full member."


It will be interesting to read your spin on this, so have at it.

Please specify the exact part of this statement that constitutes or indicates either provocation or boasting.

Be specific.