nato secretary general, Jens Stoltenberg admits and boasts about nato provoking Putin to invade

[Estro Felino]

I think your title is extremely misleading.

It should be more like: "Jens Stoltenberg explains how NATO didn't bend to Putin's blackmail"

Of course.
As if we didn't have all the other videos and documents where certain politicians say "we stipulated the Minsk agreement to gain time, and to allow Ukraine to prepare itself militarily".
Evidently they did want the war to break out, and Minsk agreements were just a pretext to gain time...so Ukraine didn't need to comply with them.

Flat-Earthers are more reliable than the NATO.

 

[Flankerl]

https://imgur.com/a/jcTI3Z6

Stay mad Tankies

 

[Shadow Wolf]

As when Americans landed in Sicily...in 1943.
They told us: but you guys side with the Nazis ..so we had to land

Yup. Fascism and tyranny had to be stopped and at that point the tumor had spread. The goal is to keep it from spreading, so of course Russia can't make ultimatums and not expect people to help fight his malignant spread through Europe that seems intent on restoring the Soviet Union.

 

[Flankerl]

 

[Estro Felino]

Yup. Fascism and tyranny had to be stopped and at that point the tumor had spread. The goal is to keep it from spreading, so of course Russia can't make ultimatums and not expect people to help fight his malignant spread through Europe that seems intent on restoring the Soviet Union.

Russians say they invaded for the same exact reason. To denazify Ukraine.

 

[Debater Slayer]

The mainstream media parroting that this invasion was "unprovoked" contradicts Jens Stoltenberg's talking points:


nato secretary general, Jens Stoltenberg admits and boasts about nato provoking Putin to invade here: https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_218172.htm?selectedLocale=en

"The background was that President Putin declared in the autumn of 2021, and actually sent a draft treaty that they wanted NATO to sign, to promise no more NATO enlargement. That was what he sent us. And was a pre-condition for not invade Ukraine. Of course we didn't sign that.

The opposite happened. He wanted us to sign that promise, never to enlarge NATO. He wanted us to remove our military infrastructure in all Allies that have joined NATO since 1997, meaning half of NATO, all the Central and Eastern Europe, we should remove NATO from that part of our Alliance, introducing some kind of B, or second class membership. We rejected that.

So he went to war to prevent NATO, more NATO, close to his borders. He has got the exact opposite. He has got more NATO presence in eastern part of the Alliance and he has also seen that Finland has already joined the Alliance and Sweden will soon be a full member."


It will be interesting to read your spin on this, so have at it.

I don't see any boasting or provocation there. Putin was threatening to invade Ukraine if his overreaching demands weren't met. The fact that he was threatening to invade seems to me even more incentive for his immediate neighbors to want to join or remain in NATO, not acquiesce to his demands.

Russia's smallest and most militarily limited neighbors such as Estonia and Latvia would simply have no protection from Putin's hostile imperialism if they weren't in NATO. I don't think it's reasonable at all to ask them to leave the alliance, much less due to a threatening ultimatum.

 

[exchemist]

They live in their own little universe.

Let's also not forget that the official reason Putin and his cohorts give for the Ukrainian invasion, oeps sorry 'special military operation', has nothing to do with Nato expansion or whatever but rather a "denazification".

.....And that they are a "brother" nation.

To which Zelensky has acidly retorted: "Yes, just like Cain and Abel".

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Russians say they invaded for the same exact reason. To denazify Ukraine.

Yeah, that's just not, yeah, they don't have Nazis like Germany had them. That's a dumb, idiotic, only appropriate for an authoritarian **** sort of excuse.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Russians say they invaded for the same exact reason. To denazify Ukraine.

It's always quite strange to see the same people who support bona fide fascists and white supremacist parties turn around and justify Putin's actions on the basis of "denazification."

Maybe some of those apologists need to start "denazifying" or "defascistizing" their own worldview before pointing fingers at Ukraine based on hyperbole and propaganda.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I am trying to play devil's advocate here, what world leader would tolerate their adversaries bringing missiles up to their border? Playing devil's advocate does not make me a Putin apologist for those of you who are intolerant of questions.

The problem with your questions is that they are not reflective of reality, or at least only partially.
First ask WHY those missiles were brought there (if they even were, because the OP doesn't say that at all, but admittedly I didn't read the article behind the link).

NATO is not the aggressor here. Neither are the countries that joined NATO.
These missiles are there as a deterrend for Russia to do what it always does.
These countries didn't join NATO in order to have more backing / firepower to attack Russia.
It's because they are threatened by Russia.

Your question completely ignores that these missiles, assuming they are there - I don't even care, are there as a RESPONS to Russian threats.
Your question is thus backwards. It shouldn't be "what leader would tolerate missiles at their border". It should rather be "which country would take defensive measures when under threat by a neighbour".

The problem Putin has with these countries joining NATO is NOT "they will attack us". It rather is "now we can't attack them without being defacto at war with the rest of the western world".

HUGE difference.

Your question completely ignores the reality on the ground.

Putin made it clear decades ago that Ukraine was a red line as any Russian leader would, nato knew this and didn't care and now here we are.

Ukraine is not a NATO member.
Also it's Ukraine itself that wants to be a member. Nobody asked them to become a member.
Same story as above.

Nato is a war treaty as opposed to a peace treaty

It is not. It's a defensive alliance. Article 5 ONLY applies when a member is attacked.
Why would Russia have a problem with this alliance unless it plans on attacking its neighbours, or has a desire to?

Russia's actions only confirm the need for this alliance. It proves every day why these countries are justified in applying for membership.
If Russia didn't threaten and attack its neighbours like that, if these countries didn't have anything to fear from Russia, then they would have no motivation for joining.
Joining costs quite some money you know.... they have to comply with quite a few rules and criteria in terms of defense budgets etc. They would also have to join in wars if article 5 becomes active.

It's not a free ride. They wouldn't join if they didn't feel like they needed to.

and now appears to be nothing more than a self fulfilling prophecy.

Wrong. Now we rather see why it exists. Because Russia is indeed a threat.

I never saw Russia expanding back into Europe, in fact many countries broke away from what was the Soviet Union peacefully for the most part.

Are you being serious?
Georgia, Tjechnia, now ukraine,...
And the constant poking and stirring and hacking in other countries. They have militias, saboteurs, assassins, double agents,... everywhere.

You might want to inform yourself.

Some people go so far as to claim that Russia wants to expand all the way to Berlin, based on what, I don't know.

It's not exactly a secret that many hawks in the Kremlin, including Putin, want to re-establish the old Soviet empire.
If it wasn't for NATO, they would have done it already.

Yes, wrong to invade Ukraine, I get that much, but what brought us to this?

You might not like the answer. What brought us to this is that Ukraine wasn't already a NATO member.
That and the fact that the Russian corrupt elite want to revive their old "glory".

Now that Russia is a capitalist system as opposed to communist, is the competition just too much for the west to bear? Is that why nato expanded east?

lol

No.

Nato expanded east because those nations asked, begged even, to join. Because they were / are under constant threat by Russia.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

In many EU member states, war is unconstitutional. So the NATO violates the constitutions of the members who founded it...
It was supposed to be a defensive alliance.

It is a defensive alliance.
Article 5 only applies when a member is ATTACKED.
If a member state is the aggressor, no member is going to come to their aid.

This is demonstrated by Hungary's stance who has never seen today Russia as a threat. And in fact, Orbàn has invited Putin many times to his country. And Hungary won't be in on it.

Orban is a fascist and a puppet of Russia.
Hardly an example.

They still live in the eighties. They are stuck in the Cold War.

The exact opposite is true.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

western military analysts warned of this for decades.

They warned of it, why?
Because they knew that that is what Russia wanted to do.
Russia threatens its neighbours.

Now the US can weaken Russia at the expense of the people of Ukraine, and billions of tax dollars are flowing into the hands of weapon manufacturers and dealers.

Then what do you suggest?
Allow a totalitarian to simply roll up a neighbour sovereign state and thereby give them a precedent that if they decide to invade and wage a war of aggression, that nobody will stop them?

yeah, that will turn out well...

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Not at all. I mean: to renounce those five regions, including Crimea.
They will never become a Russian satellite, since they are destined to join the EU.
So...

The ONLY reason why it's only those regions today is because they didn't succeed in conquering the whole country.

What cowards you people are.

 

[RestlessSoul]

What leader would tolerate their adversaries bringing missiles up to their border?

Certainly not JFK, who in 1963 was apparently prepared to blow the world to kingdom come to prevent Soviet missiles being sited in Cuba. Fortunately, the Russians blinked on that occasion. Which should not have been taken as a guarantee that they’d blink every time.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

All the west did was threaten him, Putin was stupid enough to take the bait, Putin is to blame.

Please, tell us all how he was threatened.
Be specific.

These silly notions of Russia taking over eastern Europe, where does that come from?

The fact that Russia has been doing exactly that for decades: invading and annexing its neighbours, creeping closer to EU borders every time.

In reality we are talking about the border moving about 150 miles. All of eastern Europe, such drama.

The only reason why it's not more is thanks to NATO giving them something to think twice about.

 

[Estro Felino]

It is a defensive alliance.
Article 5 only applies when a member is ATTACKED.
If a member state is the aggressor, no member is going to come to their aid.

Sending weapons to a belligerent party is a warlike approach which violates the article 26 of the German Constitution and the article 11 of the Italian Constitution.
Peaceful approaches are sanctions methods, humanitarian aid, and similar.

So...the NATO walks on thin ice. And I can prove it.

Orban is a fascist and a puppet of Russia.
Hardly an example.

I can imagine what the relationship between Soros and Zelensky is...au contraire.

The exact opposite is true.

It's true because the Cold War is over.
The Berlin Wall has fallen since 33 years.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Russians say they invaded for the same exact reason. To denazify Ukraine.

Russians say a lot of things.
Rarely the truth though.

 

[Estro Felino]

The ONLY reason why it's only those regions today is because they didn't succeed in conquering the whole country.

What cowards you people are.

They didn't want to conquer it.
They just wanted to overthrow Zelenskyy and call for new elections.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Sending weapons to a belligerent party is a warlike approach which violates the article 26 of the German Constitution and the article 11 of the Italian Constitution.
Peaceful approaches are sanctions methods, humanitarian aid, and similar.

"belligerent party"?

I think you misspelled "victim of an invading aggressor".

I imagine what is the relationship between Soros and Zelensky...au contraire.

there we go again with your unhealthy obsession with this soros dude.

It's true because the Cold War is over.
The Berlin Wall has fallen since 33 years.

Yeah and Putin hates it.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

They didn't want to conquer it.

They just wanted to overthrow Zelenskyy and call for new elections.

And install a russian puppet, effectively turning it into a vasal state like Belarus.


You really do live in your own little world do you