nato secretary general, Jens Stoltenberg admits and boasts about nato provoking Putin to invade

[Estro Felino]

It's always quite strange to see the same people who support bona fide fascists and white supremacist parties turn around and justify Putin's actions on the basis of "denazification."

Maybe some of those apologists need to start "denazifying" or "defascistizing" their own worldview before pointing fingers at Ukraine based on hyperbole and propaganda.

I would never justify Putin.
Nevertheless, renouncing those four regions to get peace is a good bargain.

But Zelensky wants to keep fighting...and I mean...it's Ukrainian soldiers who die...he's safe in his bunker...or wherever he is.
so...it's easy to carry on a war, when it's the others who die.

 

[Estro Felino]

"belligerent party"?

I think you misspelled "victim of an invading aggressor".

Yes. Belligerent party.
Because diplomatic solutions were offered to Ukraine.
Peace proposals were offered to Ukraine.
They refused them because they want to keep fighting.
That's what a belligerent party means.

there we go again with your unhealthy obsession with this soros dude.

He's immortal. I will die before he does, wanna bet?
So I will be talking about him...indefinitely.

Yeah and Putin hates it.

Putin is not a problem because Europe is stronger and the NATO is stronger.

 

[ajay0]

The mainstream media parroting that this invasion was "unprovoked" contradicts Jens Stoltenberg's talking points:


nato secretary general, Jens Stoltenberg admits and boasts about nato provoking Putin to invade here: https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_218172.htm?selectedLocale=en

"The background was that President Putin declared in the autumn of 2021, and actually sent a draft treaty that they wanted NATO to sign, to promise no more NATO enlargement. That was what he sent us. And was a pre-condition for not invade Ukraine. Of course we didn't sign that.

The opposite happened. He wanted us to sign that promise, never to enlarge NATO. He wanted us to remove our military infrastructure in all Allies that have joined NATO since 1997, meaning half of NATO, all the Central and Eastern Europe, we should remove NATO from that part of our Alliance, introducing some kind of B, or second class membership. We rejected that.

So he went to war to prevent NATO, more NATO, close to his borders. He has got the exact opposite. He has got more NATO presence in eastern part of the Alliance and he has also seen that Finland has already joined the Alliance and Sweden will soon be a full member."


It will be interesting to read your spin on this, so have at it.

After the cold war, NATO does not have much relevance, and because of its high expenses, there has been movements to shut it down so that the exhorbitant funds could be allocated to other fields where they are needed.

I find it reasonable that by provoking Putin to war, Stoltenberg ensured that NATO remains relevant and that new weapons markets can be created. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to figure this out.

He is a honest man who did the job his bosses hired him to do, and now decided to brag about it as he is proud of his success.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I would never justify Putin.

Many of your posts already come across as doing so, whether you realize this or not.

Nevertheless, renouncing those four regions to get peace is a good bargain.

Clearly not to the Ukrainians who would rather risk or give their lives defending their territory than give up land to Putin.

But Zelensky wants to keep fighting...and I mean...it's Ukrainian soldiers who die...he's safe in his bunker...or wherever he is.
so...it's easy to carry on a war, when it's the others who die.

Zelenskyy and a majority of Ukrainians want to keep defending their country, and you're placing the onus of the war on the defender rather than the aggressor. That's profoundly harmful logic because it enables imperialism.

 

[Estro Felino]

And install a russian puppet, effectively turning it into a vasal state like Belarus.


You really do live in your own little world do you

It's impossible because Ukraine, sooner or later will join the EU.

Aren't you happy that Ukraine will join the EU? I am.
They will need to abandon the warlike approaches to comply with our standards. Freedom of speech, freedom of press, etc...

I don't think Zelensky's approach is compatible with EU standards.

 

[Estro Felino]

Zelenskyy and a majority of Ukrainians want to keep defending their country, and you're placing the onus of the war on the defender rather than the aggressor. That's profoundly harmful logic because it enables imperialism.

Honestly, I doubt it...after watching the hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians fleeing to Western Europe, Germany mainly.
They are welcomed as war refugees...so...this proves they are forced to fight. They want to escape.
It's not something willing.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Honestly, I doubt it...after watching the hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians fleeing to Western Europe, Germany mainly.
They are welcomed as war refugees...so...this proves they are forced to fight. They want to escape.
It's not something willing.

Not everyone can fight in a war, at least not effectively. Hundreds of thousands is a tiny fraction of Ukraine's population anyway, which numbers almost 44 million people.

 

[Estro Felino]

Not everyone can fight in a war, at least not effectively. Hundreds of thousands is a tiny fraction of Ukraine's population anyway, which numbers almost 44 million people.

Indeed, The Russian Federation has a population of 144,000,000 people plus the allies.
It's like Luxembourg wanting to defeat Germany.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Nevertheless, renouncing those four regions to get peace is a good bargain.

It is not as it sets a precedent for future violence. It tells him that he can just invade neighbours and get away with it.

But Zelensky wants to keep fighting...and I mean...it's Ukrainian soldiers who die...he's safe in his bunker...or wherever he is.
so...it's easy to carry on a war, when it's the others who die.

Why don't you say the same about Putin?


It's curious that you use the word "bargain" also. It tells us all that you know who the aggressor is who is blackmailing the world.
It would be just as easy, easier in fact, for Putin to simply stop his aggression as it would be for Zelensky, and the rest of Ukraine, to drop his pants and bend over.

It tells me that you know just like the rest of us that "peace" is not what Putin is after.

You're a coward. You're the kind of person who would tell kids who are being bullied that they just should hand over their lunch money, while leaving the bullies free to do their bullying.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Yes. Belligerent party.
Because diplomatic solutions were offered to Ukraine.

No, they weren't.

It's like when the mob comes to your shop and threatens to destroy your merchandise unless you pay "protection money".
The offer to pay "protection money" is not a "diplomatic solution". It's blackmail.

Peace proposals were offered to Ukraine.

No. Blackmail was offered.

They refused them because they want to keep fighting.

No. They refused to bow to blackmail because they aren't cowards like you.
They do not allow themselves to be bullied around.
Good for them. Shame on you.

Putin is not a problem because Europe is stronger and the NATO is stronger.

In a conventional war, yes. Conventional war is not what is at stake here.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

After the cold war, NATO does not have much relevance, and because of its high expenses, there has been movements to shut it down so that the exhorbitant funds could be allocated to other fields where they are needed.

I find it reasonable that by provoking Putin to war, Stoltenberg ensured that NATO remains relevant and that new weapons markets can be created. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to figure this out.

He is a honest man who did the job his bosses hired him to do, and now decided to brag about it as he is proud of his success.

This post makes me vommit.

You guys have a very weird way of interpreting pure blackmail.

The cold war may be over, but the threat of corrupt elite warhawks in Russia is very much alive. As demonstrated by their actions every day.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

It's impossible because Ukraine, sooner or later will join the EU.

Installing a russian puppet like in Belarus would effectively prevent that from happening.
You should think things through. Or simply think to start with.

Aren't you happy that Ukraine will join the EU? I am.

It wouldn't if a russian puppet regime like in Belarus is installed.
It couldn't even, since there are certain criteria that need to be in place to even be able to join.
Corrupt russian regimes installed through fake elections would disqualify them instantly.

They will need to abandon the warlike approaches to comply with our standards.

Which won't happen if it's ruled by a puppet russian regime.
It has no "warlike approach" today. It is defending itself against foreign aggression, as any self-respecting nation would do.

I don't think Zelensky's approach is compatible with EU standards.

You have effectively demonstrated to us all that what you think is irrelevant.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Honestly, I doubt it...after watching the hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians fleeing to Western Europe, Germany mainly.
They are welcomed as war refugees...so...this proves they are forced to fight. They want to escape.
It's not something willing.

People fleeing as war refugees is indeed what happens when a foreign aggressor invades your land.

One of them works as a cleaning lady at my house. She doesn't want to be here. Every day she hopes Russians leave so that she can return home.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Indeed, The Russian Federation has a population of 144,000,000 people plus the allies.
It's like Luxembourg wanting to defeat Germany.

Imagine the embarassment of Germany not being able to conquer Luxembourg.




It's a happy side effect of the corruption culture in Russian government. Half the defense budget goes straight into the elite's pockets and mansions in, ironically, EU countries instead of actual proper training and equipment of Defense.

And now they are forced to redeploy tanks from 40's and 50's to wage their war of aggression.

 

[Estro Felino]

People fleeing as war refugees is indeed what happens when a foreign aggressor invades your land.

One of them works as a cleaning lady at my house. She doesn't want to be here. Every day she hopes Russians leave so that she can return home.

I mean deserters.
Not women.
People who don't want to fight for that president.

 

[Estro Felino]

Installing a russian puppet like in Belarus would effectively prevent that from happening.
You should think things through. Or simply think to start with.
It wouldn't if a russian puppet regime like in Belarus is installed.
It couldn't even, since there are certain criteria that need to be in place to even be able to join.
Corrupt russian regimes installed through fake elections would disqualify them instantly.

If Ukraine joins the EU, they will have a democratic government, a government which is against Russian interference.

So you don't want them to join the EU?
You want Ukraine to live in a limbo? Neither Russia's ally, nor EU member?
Answer clearly and unambiguously, dear sir.

Which won't happen if it's ruled by a puppet russian regime.
It has no "warlike approach" today. It is defending itself against foreign aggression, as any self-respecting nation would do.

If Austrians invade South Tyrol, I don't think Italians would be so masochistic to sacrifice the life of hundreds of soldiers.
It's a small region...they would give it to them...in the end.
I think it's pointless an unwise to fight an endless war.

You have effectively demonstrated to us all that what you think is irrelevant.

Next year there are the EU parliamentarian elections. I don't think it is wise for the lounge-loving and carefree Brussels élites to propagandize the prosecution of the war: this narrative is giving away millions of votes to European nationalists and anti-NATO souverainists.

So I would advise these élites to be less self-detrimental. And to prepare themselves psychologically, because the election results will be disastrous for them.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I mean deserters.

I mean anyone.

Not women.
People who don't want to fight for that president.

Or who don't want to fight, full stop. Who instead just want to live and take care of their loved ones.

You think you are making an argument, but you are instead just stating ridiculous things and arguing strawmen.

My grandfather was also "forced" to take up arms against the Nazi's.
Did he do it? Yes. Would he have if there wasn't a mobilization forcing him to? Probably not. He Had a wife and kids.

Would I do it? I don't know. I think you don't know until you find yourself in that situation.
Maybe I would, maybe I won't. I can't say.


Does it change anything about the larger point made here? No.


FYI: my cleaning lady's husband and kids are in Belgium also. He fled. He's 40. He wasn't allowed to be fled anyway. Does he also hope for Russians to leave so he can return home? Yes. Does he hope Ukrainian troops kick Russian butt? Yes. He thinks Zelensky is a national hero.

He fled because he is not a fighter. He's torn up about it also because on the one hand he feels like he let his country down but on the other hand if he would have stayed, he thinks he would have let his wife and kids down as he is sure he would be killed within the week as he has zero battle experience and never even has seen a real gun up close.


You could say this is anecdotal and you'ld be right. But at least it's the real story of an actual man from Ukraine and not the made up sh!t you just invented on the spot. Also: ask yourself why the fled to europe and not to Russia.

 

[Estro Felino]

Would I do it? I don't know. I think you don't know until you find yourself in that situation.
Maybe I would, maybe I won't. I can't say.

It's always very easy to be pro-war when it's the others who go to war to die.

He fled because he is not a fighter. He's torn up about it also because on the one hand he feels like he let his country down but on the other hand if he would have stayed, he thinks he would have let his wife and kids down as he is sure he would be killed within the week as he has zero battle experience and never even has seen a real gun up close.

...which basically confirms what I have just said. They are forced to fight, so they flee to Western Europe because they love life and have wife and children.
Come on...

You could say this is anecdotal and you'ld be right.

I have something anecdotal as well: there are Ukrainian refugees here who clearly say they fled because it's compulsory to fight in that war. It's not on a voluntary base. And they don't want to die for that lost cause. Period.

But at least it's the real story of an actual man from Ukraine and not the made up sh!t you just invented on the spot.

Bonjour, finesse.
I didn't invent anything. I can provide evidence Diritto e Giustizia

Also: ask yourself why the fled to europe and not to Russia.

Because Western Europe is richer; but some fled to Russia too.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

If Ukraine joins the EU, they will have a democratic government, a government which is against Russian interference.

So you don't want them to join the EU?
You want Ukraine to live in a limbo? Neither Russia's ally, nor EU member?
Answer clearly and unambiguously, dear sir.

You are really obtuse. Stubborn. Whatever the word is.
I can only repeat myself:
A democratic properly elected government is exactly what the Russians don't want to see. This is why they hate the Zelensky government.
If they had their way and their "special military operation" had gone as planned, then Zelensky would be dead, the properly elected government dismantled and Ukraine would have become a second Belarus. A corrupt regime with fake elections with Russian overlords.

If Austrians invade South Tyrol, I don't think Italians would be so masochistic to sacrifice the life of hundreds of soldiers.
It's a small region...they would give it to them...in the end.
I think it's pointless an unwise to fight an endless war.

If Austria would invade South Tyrol, they would see their behinds kicked out of Nato and their butts would be whooped by the full force of NATO invoking article 5.
And if that wouldn't occur, Italians would scream horror, unjustice and murder. And they'ld be right.

And afterwards, all hell would break loose because at that point the NATO alliance would be rendered worthless and it would all come crumbling down, leaving every nation on its own island. Tensions would rise globally and the slightest spark would cause war and Europe to burn up.

This would off course never happen.

The last time a European nation invaded its neighbours, all hell indeed broke loose and it ended up in WW2.

You do not give in to aggressors. You do not let bullies get away with bullying.
The sacrifice is worth it. Only a swift punch in the nose is what stops a bully.
Bending over with your pants down, only makes sure the bully continues to bully.

Next year there are the EU parliamentarian elections. I don't think it is wise for the lounge-loving and carefree Brussels élites to propagandize the prosecution of the war: this narrative is giving away millions of votes to European nationalists and anti-NATO souverainists.

So I would advise these élites to be less self-detrimental. And to prepare themselves psychologically, because the election results will be disastrous for them.

Whatever. I'm not interested in your facistic doomsday conspiracies.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

It's always very easy to be pro-war when it's the others who go to war to die.

I'm not pro-war.
I'm anti-aggression.

I'm not a soldier. I don't know how to fight.
Why do countries have a military if not to defend themselves against foreign aggression?
Might as well abolish the entire defense department if you are just going to drop your pants whenever a foreign aggressor enters your land.

You make zero sense.
It's a soldier's job to defend the nation.
Why wouldn't Ukraine do exactly that?

...which basically confirms what I have just said. They are forced to fight, so they flee to Western Europe because they love life and have wife and children.
Come on...

That's how it goes in war when facing a more powerfull enemy.
It's how it went in Belgium as well when the Nazi's invaded.
Why would Ukraine be any different?

Do you think that the countries who were defending themselves against the Nazi's were wrong as well to mobilize?
Do you also think they should have just dropped their pants, bend over and have the Nazi's have their way "in the name of peace"?

Do you think before posting these things?

I have something anecdotal as well: there are Ukrainian refugees here who clearly say they fled because it's compulsory to fight in that war. It's not on a voluntary base. And they don't want to die for that lost cause. Period.

Yes. That's quite different from what you claimed earlier, that they don't want to fight for Zelensky. As if they were siding with the Russians instead.
Plenty of people fled during WW2 as well and went to hide out somewhere in order to avoid being send to the battle field.

How in any way is this an argument?
You are such a joke.

Bonjour, finesse.
I didn't invent anything. I can provide evidence Diritto e Giustizia

Your very own example just showed that you made it up.
Not wanting to fight / die (full stop) is very different from your implication that it was about fighting for Zelensky instead.
https://www.dirittoegiustizia.it/#/documentDetail/9183553

Because Western Europe is richer

Right, right... it has nothing to do with the fact that Russia is the enemy.
Nope. Nothing at all.

; but some fled to Russia too.

You misspelled "deported".