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nato secretary general, Jens Stoltenberg admits and boasts about nato provoking Putin to invade

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
U.S was ready to invade Cuba and go to nuclear war with U.S.S.R after the Soviets stationed WMD in nearby Cuba.
Which ALSO has nothing to do with the current situation in Ukraine.

Do you or do you not understand this? Because, like, you should. There's a lot of difference between an expansionist regime moving arms into a country neighbouring another that they are deliberately provoking and a sovereign state making the decision to enter into a military pact with other nations.

If you don't understand this distinction, you are not qualified to comment on geopolitics. Or politics. Or probably anything.

Why should the Russians, having the world's largest arsenal of nuclear weapons act any different when NATO is expanded to neighboring Ukraine !
For one, because unlike the USSR, NATO is not an expansionist, imperialist regime that is in direct conflict and threatening war with other nuclear powers.

For two, you're arguing IN FAVOUR OF IMPERIALISM AND INTERVENTIONISM. You are arguing that a large, powerful country is JUSTIFIED in bullying its neighbours and making decisions for them using military power. I mean, I haven't seen a SINGLE POSTER on these forums arguing that USA military interventionism in the case of Cuba was justified. Not a one. So why do you think this argument of "The bad thing this country is doing can be (very inaccurately and by historically illiterate people) compared to this bad thing another country did - so who can blame them?!" Do you honestly think that's a good argument?
 
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Glaurung

Denizen of Niflheim
Why should the Russians, having the world's largest arsenal of nuclear weapons act any different when NATO is expanded to neighboring Ukraine !
It amazes me how naive people are about Russia's intentions. Russia resents NATO because NATO blocks Russia's ability to expand. Blocking Russia's ability to launch expansionist wars is not a victimization of Russia.

Putin does not have a 'great power' right to an unimpeded ability to attack his neighbors.
 

ajay0

Well-Known Member
Which ALSO has nothing to do with the current situation in Ukraine.

Do you or do you not understand this? Because, like, you should.

How is that ! The Russian republic inherited the U.S.S.R's military superpower status and its nuclear weapons. It is the only country on earth which can wipe out the U.S. and Europe several times on its own without blinking an eye.

Why cant the U.S. and NATO stick to smaller and less lethal countries like Iraq, Libya , Afghanistan and Serbia !

For one, because unlike the USSR, NATO is not an expansionist, imperialist regime that is in direct conflict and threatening war with other nuclear powers.

This is just propaganda churned out by western media owned capitalist institutions. Truth is that new weapons markets and sales are needed, and the reason for going down on the promises made to Gorbachev " not to expand an inch eastward. "

The more the passion generated, the more the war is extended. I am sure the propagandists are rofl seeing the way they keep duping the public on paying exhorbitantly for wars thousands of miles away, when money is needed at home for affordable healthcare, housing and education and other amenities which are free or cheap in other welfare countries and even in Russia.

Remember , a long unsuccessful war is more profitable than a short successful war.

For two, you're arguing IN FAVOUR OF IMPERIALISM AND INTERVENTIONISM. You are arguing that a large, powerful country is JUSTIFIED in bullying its neighbours and making decisions for them using military power.
What about the U.S. bullying its latin american neighbors and invading many countries of the world which is too numerous to describe !
 

Flankerl

Well-Known Member
Why should the Russians, having the world's largest arsenal of nuclear weapons act any different when NATO is expanded to neighboring Ukraine !
Last time I checked Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Finland and Ukraine were all independent democratic countries that made the independent choice to align themselves away from Moscow.

This is just propaganda churned out by western media owned capitalist institutions. Truth is that new weapons markets and sales are needed, and the reason for going down on the promises made to Gorbachev " not to expand an inch eastward. "
That agreement never happened.


Just another Tankie.
 

ajay0

Well-Known Member
Last time I checked Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Finland and Ukraine were all independent democratic countries that made the independent choice to align themselves away from Moscow.

Cuba was an independent country as well which wanted to hold wmd from the Soviets. Why did the U.S. have a big issue with it !

That agreement never happened.


Just another Tankie.

It was a verbal agreement made by many western leaders conveniently forgotten in the lure of new weapons markets and profits. Yummy. :hearteyes:
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
How is that ! The Russian republic inherited the U.S.S.R's military superpower status and its nuclear weapons. It is the only country on earth which can wipe out the U.S. and Europe several times on its own without blinking an eye.
So? What does that have to do with the rights of sovereign states on their borders? Do you think their might means nothing could or should be done to prevent their military expansionism?

Why cant the U.S. and NATO stick to smaller and less lethal countries like Iraq, Libya , Afghanistan and Serbia !
Why should they? You want countries like Ukraine to just be swallowed up by Russia without any recourse?

Your argument here seriously is "we should let Russia do what it wants because Russia is powerful". That's it. That's your argument. It's cowardly appeasement, all the way down.

This is just propaganda churned out by western media owned capitalist institutions.
Ah, the old trifecta of spurious insinuations. When in doubt, just call anything that disagrees with you (or proves you wrong) either "propaganda" or a result of "western media" or something something "capitalism". Or, all three! If you can get away with it.

Truth is that new weapons markets and sales are needed, and the reason for going down on the promises made to Gorbachev " not to expand an inch eastward. "
There was never any formal agreement, nothing in any treaty that was signed to that effect. Gentlemen's agreements don't really count when it comes to geopolitics, and the reality of the situation is that denying a sovereign state the right to free association without control by their neighbours is essentially a pro-authoritarian position.

I don't care about some vague statements or pinky-promise placation. I care about what is actually right and what is actually good. It is right and good that Ukraine have indepedence from Russia and be able to join whatever military alliances it wants. If Russia has a problem, it can swivel. It's not like Russia broke several major agreements and treaties by invading Ukraine. But, apparently, some promise made decades ago that never made its way into any actual treaty matters more than that. Ho hum, I guess.

The more the passion generated, the more the war is extended. I am sure the propagandists are rofl seeing the way they keep duping the public on paying exhorbitantly for wars thousands of miles away, when money is needed at home for affordable healthcare, housing and education and other amenities which are free or cheap in other welfare countries and even in Russia.
Yeah, I agree, it totally sucks that this war that was started by Russia is costing so many lives and distracting global funds that should be put to much better use elsewhere. But they did start it, and helping protect Ukraine is the right thing to do. I guess we'll just have to keep supporting it until Russia finally retreats and pays reparations.

Remember , a long unsuccessful war is more profitable than a short successful war.
Alleging that this war is about profits is asinine and absurd. Russia started it. If you don't want war profiteers to profit off of war, maybe you should blame the people who started a war. Is your position that war should NEVER be engaged in, because people profit from it?

What about the U.S. bullying its latin american neighbors and invading many countries of the world which is too numerous to describe !
I also dislike and disagree with that.

Because I have what's called "ideological consistency". You may have heard of it. It's why, when people make arguments like "The USA has no right to intervene with sovereign states" and then, in practically the same breath, make statements like "NATO should never have expanded eastward and Ukraine should never have applied because Russia told them not to" it kind of rings hollow to me. Almost as if the person saying these things doesn't REALLY care about foreign interventionism or hegemonic power structures, they just care about being anti-America.

You're not an anti-imperialist, so stop pretending to be. You're making us genuine anti-imperialists look bad.
 
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ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
Cuba was an independent country as well which wanted to hold wmd from the Soviets. Why did the U.S. have a big issue with it !
Because the USSR was literally an expansionist regime that enacted invasions in multiple neighbouring countries and was literally threatening to escalate nuclear war with the US.

It was a verbal agreement made by many western leaders conveniently forgotten in the lure of new weapons markets and profits. Yummy. :hearteyes:
You mean, that agreement that never made it into any treaties whatsoever? That agreement?

Ah yes, you're right. We should tear up all the SIGNED AGREEMENTS that Russia took a dump all over when they invaded Ukraine; those are clearly irrelevant. But a "VERBAL AGREEMENT" that was never seen in any signed agreements and thus neither side had made any meaningful or official declaration to respect; that's golden. Can't break that.
 

ajay0

Well-Known Member
So? What does that have to do with the rights of sovereign states on their borders? Do you think their might means nothing could or should be done to prevent their military expansionism?


Why should they? You want countries like Ukraine to just be swallowed up by Russia without any recourse?

Russia is reacting to an existential threat to its borders like any other country would do !

Stop NATO expansion to Ukraine unconditionally or to the borders of Russia, and all this conflict and threat of ww3 and nuclear holocaust will cease.

An alliance of neutral countries under the jurisdiction of UN can be created to safeguard the defense of bordering countries of Russia like Ukraine.

This or the presence of such forces will not be perceived as a threat by the Russians, considering their UN authority which Russia is also a part of.

If possible, add Russia to Nato. As Lincoln said, "“Do I not destroy my enemies when I make them my friends?”
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
Russia is reacting to an existential threat to its borders like any other country would do !
I call BS. NATO is not an existential threat to Russia. Russia is a big boy country with big boy pants, and in those big boy pants it has a lot of nuclear weapons. It's not going to be invaded. There has never been any contention about that idea.

Russia. Is. Not. At. Threat. Of. Invasion.

It is nothing short of delusional propaganda to insist otherwise.

Stop NATO expansion to Ukraine unconditionally or to the borders of Russia, and all this conflict and threat of ww3 and nuclear holocaust will cease.
I also call BS. Even when given assurances, Russia still invaded. Before there was even a question of Ukraine entering NATO, Russia was already meddling with Ukraine.

Also, no. Countries like Russia don't get to dictate the terms under which foreign nations get to join independent military alliances. Nor should they. We cannot simply placate warmongering imperialists just because they cry about the rest of world being so means as to not leave their neighbours unprotected and with no recourse when they are invaded and annexed. Russia doesn't get to tell the world "You have to leave these countries alone, regardless of what they want, because we want to invade them", and then push further west because the rest of the world is too scared of a giant, bald baby with its finger on the button.

I cannot say it often enough. Russia can swivel, and any attempt to placate and appease them is no an anti-war position. It's encouraging their imperialism, and encouraging and rewarding their military expansionism.

Once again, your argument here is literally "We should let Russia do what it wants, because Russia is powerful". it is the most pro-war, pro-imperialist argument you could POSSIBLY make.

An alliance of neutral countries under the jurisdiction of UN can be created to safeguard the defense of bordering countries or Russia like Ukraine.
Like NATO?

This or the presence of such forces will not be perceived as a threat by the Russians, considering their UN authority which Russia is also a part of.
Also BS. Being a member of the UN hasn't stopped them invading Ukraine, or Crimea, or Georgia. This idea that Russia "perceives things as threats" is garbage Kremlin propaganda. There was no threat to Russia from these territories, and there is no threat to Russia from NATO. The only "threat" NATO poses is to Russia's ambitions of military expansionism.

If possible, add Russia to Nato. As Lincoln said, "“Do I not destroy my enemies when I make them my friends?”
I, too, would like Russia to join NATO. But it's pretty difficult to add them to NATO when they are constantly invading and annexing their neighbours. Doesn't exactly look good on a membership application to a global military alliance.
 

ajay0

Well-Known Member
Like NATO?

Nato is an european alliance and europe has a history of conflict with Russia. The regimes of Napoleonic France and Nazi Germany ended after they attacked Russia imprudently.

Considering this past history of conflict, I don't think NATO can be added to any league of neutral countries assigned by the UN to protect neighboring countries of Russia.


I, too, would like Russia to join NATO. But it's pretty difficult to add them to NATO when they are constantly invading and annexing their neighbours. Doesn't exactly look good on a membership application to a global military alliance.

Their invasions of Georgia and Ukraine came when they joined NATO. If Russia is also added to NATO , they will have a sense of security and will not object to Ukraine and Georgia joining Nato.

As part of ending the war through talks and diplomacy, this proposal should be extended to Russia to join NATO.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
Nato is an european alliance and europe has a history of conflict with Russia. The regimes of Napoleonic France and Nazi Germany ended after they attacked Russia imprudently.

Considering this past history of conflict, I don't think NATO can be added to any league of neutral countries assigned by the UN to protect neighboring countries of Russia.




Their invasions of Georgia and Ukraine came when they joined NATO. If Russia is also added to NATO , they will have a sense of security and will not object to Ukraine and Georgia joining Nato.

As part of ending the war through talks and diplomacy, this proposal should be extended to Russia to join NATO.
You don't seem to know much about this subject. Neither Georgia nor Ukraine has ever been in NATO.
 

ajay0

Well-Known Member
You don't seem to know much about this subject. Neither Georgia nor Ukraine has ever been in NATO.

They have been offered to join NATO , which is to Russia's dislike.

And yes, I am not that bothered or interested in this subject, but am appalled by the prospect of a nuclear holocaust which can be very nasty.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
They have been offered to join NATO , which is to Russia's dislike.

And yes, I am not that bothered or interested in this subject, but am appalled by the prospect of a nuclear holocaust which can be very nasty.
Well that is quite a different matter - and is also false.

They have both requested membership of NATO (now why might that be, do you think?) and their requests are being considered, at least in principle. However it has been made clear to both that the conditions for them to join are not yet met.

What you seem determined to overlook is that these countries want to join, in order to protect themselves from Russia. This all comes about due to Russia's threatening behaviour.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
It is not either yes or no.
What I "want" isn't relevant when it comes to this. It's their own decision.
If they want to join, they are welcome - but only if they meet the requirements of joining
Of course they want to join...
Zelensky comes to Brussels 24 / 7 asking to join the EU.

.
A big requirement is a fairly elected government that respects secularism and actual democratic values.
If they join the European Union, neither the Yanukovichs, nor the Zelenskyys will be allowed to become presidents.
Because they both forbid freedom of speech and freedom of press.

Please...no double standards, monsieur.
Pas de deux poids et deux mésures...;)

Would it be a sham referendum like the one conducted in donbass, or an actual one?
No. UN supervision.
What if the people decide against it and wish to stay with Italy and Austria continues to force them through military presence?
Impossible. Most of them are German-speaking people.
The first party is the Suedtiroler Volkspartei.
What then?
We are not that stupid.
We don't waste human lives for the sake of a small region.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
Nato is an european alliance
Nope, it's North Atlantic (clue's in the name). There's plenty of NATO members and allies outside of Europe.

and europe has a history of conflict with Russia.
Gee, I wonder what kind of conflict that was.

The regimes of Napoleonic France and Nazi Germany ended after they attacked Russia imprudently.
That sure does sound interesting. I wonder what happened in the multiple decades following those imprudent attacks?

Maybe we'll never know.


Considering this past history of conflict, I don't think NATO can be added to any league of neutral countries assigned by the UN to protect neighboring countries of Russia.
I suspect that's mainly because it's not a country, but whatever. NATO has, at the very least, started markedly fewer wars in the past two decades than Russia has. It's pretty obvious that Russia is a bigger threat to its neighbours than NATO is a threat to Russia.

Their invasions of Georgia and Ukraine came when they joined NATO.
Nope. Neither Ukraine nor Georgia had joined NATO at the time of their invasion. What drove the invasion was the POSSIBILITY of joining NATO in the future, which is something Russia could not tolerate, as that would have prevented them from annexing their territory.

If Russia is also added to NATO , they will have a sense of security and will not object to Ukraine and Georgia joining Nato.
Then perhaps they should stop invading their neighbours. Respecting the sovereignty of neighbouring states is kind of a big membership requirement.

Not that it matters. This NATO nonsense is just a pretext. Russia invades countries because it's an imperialist regime, not because it has any legitimate fear of these countries joining NATO somehow threatening their national security. It's pure propaganda.

As part of ending the war through talks and diplomacy, this proposal should be extended to Russia to join NATO.
Nah. That's NATO's choice. If NATO doesn't want to be seen to be allied with a nation famed for warmongering and imperialism, I'd agree with them. And I don't think Russia should get a seat at the table when all they're going to do it jump right up on it, take a massive dump on the centrepiece and then drunkenly attack anyone else at the table who looks smaller than them.

Like I said, Russia joining NATO would be a good thing; but ONLY IF Russia can finally curb its aggressive, imperialist behaviour and start acting with a degree of geopolitical cooperation. Until then, its warmongering should not be rewarded, and any position to the contrary is pure appeasement.
 
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Flankerl

Well-Known Member
Cuba was an independent country as well which wanted to hold wmd from the Soviets. Why did the U.S. have a big issue with it !
The USSR instigated and supported Communist revolutions in various countries throughout the world.
And at the end of the day the USSR was just another version of the basic Muscovite Imperialism that has been going on for 500 years.

It was a verbal agreement made by many western leaders conveniently forgotten in the lure of new weapons markets and profits. Yummy. :hearteyes:
No it wasn't.

It literally never happened.


Their invasions of Georgia and Ukraine came when they joined NATO. If Russia is also added to NATO , they will have a sense of security and will not object to Ukraine and Georgia joining Nato.
They have been offered to join NATO , which is to Russia's dislike.
Here we can see how fans of fascist countries like Muscovy change course.
One of their lies is proven false they immediately hop unto another lie.

Which is why it makes no sense to debate them.
All they can ever produce is a new set of lies once their previous set failed.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Is poverty-stricken Russia the world's largest arms supplier ? I have read articles a decade back of russian soldiers complaining of not getting their salaries for months, ageing infrastructure and equipment, issues of Islamic terrorism in Chechnya, brain drain to other countries and so on. Do they have the war chest for imperial expansions ? Not at all.

That is due to corruption of the elites. Instead of investing the allocated funds in defense, half of it disappeared in the elite's pockets to buy castles, mansions, yachts and what-not.

None of this is relevant to the point made.
That point being that Russia never ceased to be a threat to its neighbours. This is why those neighbours / ex-soviet states themselves appealed to NATO to join. Nobody asked them.

To say that Nato "provoked" Putin is to simply deny reality and / or blindly fall for Russian propaganda.
Nobody has threatened Russia. It's Russia that has consistently threatened its neighbours. This, and only this, is why those countries appealed to NATO to join the defensive alliance.

Russia has nothing to fear from NATO as long as it doesn't attack them. Russia's actions only demonstrate why NATO is still relevant and necessary, even long after the collapse of the USSR.

Ponder over this question, and you will find your doubts clearing off.
Your question is oblivious to reality.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
How is that ! The Russian republic inherited the U.S.S.R's military superpower status and its nuclear weapons. It is the only country on earth which can wipe out the U.S. and Europe several times on its own without blinking an eye.

Why cant the U.S. and NATO stick to smaller and less lethal countries like Iraq, Libya , Afghanistan and Serbia !



This is just propaganda churned out by western media owned capitalist institutions. Truth is that new weapons markets and sales are needed, and the reason for going down on the promises made to Gorbachev " not to expand an inch eastward. "

The more the passion generated, the more the war is extended. I am sure the propagandists are rofl seeing the way they keep duping the public on paying exhorbitantly for wars thousands of miles away, when money is needed at home for affordable healthcare, housing and education and other amenities which are free or cheap in other welfare countries and even in Russia.

Remember , a long unsuccessful war is more profitable than a short successful war.
I love how one could take these exact arguments and go back to 1940 and use them virtually unchanged to say that we shouldn't unite to fight against the Nazi's.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Russia is reacting to an existential threat to its borders like any other country would do !

What existential threat?
Be specific.


Stop NATO expansion to Ukraine unconditionally or to the borders of Russia, and all this conflict and threat of ww3 and nuclear holocaust will cease.

Keep dreaming.
Russia doesn't like these countries joinging NATO for one reason only: because once they do, they can no longer freely attack them without essentially being at war with the entire west.

That is all.

Once again, this just goes to show that these countries have every reason to be the demanding party to join NATO.
Because again: NATO doesn't ask these countries to join. These countries themselves are the ones that ask NATO to join. Because they realise they live next to an expansionist bully.

An alliance of neutral countries under the jurisdiction of UN can be created to safeguard the defense of bordering countries of Russia like Ukraine.

The UN. You mean where Russia has a permanent seat and veto power?
Yeah, sure.

This or the presence of such forces will not be perceived as a threat by the Russians, considering their UN authority which Russia is also a part of.

Once more: NATO is not a threat to Russia. It is ONLY a threat to Russia's expansionist urges. It is ONLY a threat to Russia's invasion wars.

If possible, add Russia to Nato. As Lincoln said, "“Do I not destroy my enemies when I make them my friends?”
Authoritarian, undemocratic, facistic, expansionist, corrupt regimes are not welcome.
 
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