nato secretary general, Jens Stoltenberg admits and boasts about nato provoking Putin to invade

[exchemist]

Sure thing sherlock. Goes to show what you have been paying attention to. I don't care to glorify war but you are free to point out the good guys in all of this as if there are any, and decide anyone that doesn't agree with you is an imperialist, as if I care.

Haha. Must be time for a vodka, in your St Petersburg troll farm

 

[Estro Felino]

Sure thing sherlock. Goes to show what you have been paying attention to. I don't care to glorify war but you are free to point out the good guys in all of this as if there are any, and decide anyone that doesn't agree with you is an imperialist, as if I care.

We have reached a point where the ones who fomented the war between Donbas regions and Kyiv are so desperate that they will deny.
The rule is deny, deny, deny.

Even if we bring them the videos where they said what they said, in 2014...they are capable of saying: "It wasn't me".

It's squalid to see their desperation...and how low certain élites can stoop, when it deals with the Truth.

 

[lukethethird]

Everybody that plays out the biblical myth in their minds of good vs evil believes they are on the side of good, and it appears there is no shortage of them on this forum. As if nato bombs are the good bombs and are used for the benefit of all concerned, and if you don't play along you are on the side of evil. It's laughable if it weren't so pathetic.

 

[Estro Felino]

Everybody that plays out the biblical myth in their minds of good vs evil believes they are on the side of good, and it appears there is no shortage of them on this forum. As if nato bombs are the good bombs and are used for the benefit of all concerned, and if you don't play along you are on the side of evil. It's laughable if it weren't so pathetic.

You don't need to believe in God or in Christianity to do that.

There are also so many atheists who believe they are on the side of good...and that their side, country or party is entitled to do anything.
They can kill, massacre and bomb because they are everything. They are God.

The others are not allowed to do the exact same things. Because they are nothingness.

 

[lukethethird]

You don't need to believe in God or in Christianity to do that.

There are also so many atheists who believe they are on the side of good...and that their side, country or party is entitled to do anything.
They can kill, massacre and bomb because they are everything. They are God.

The others are not allowed to do the exact same things. Because they are nothingness.

I say biblical because myths such as good vs evil can play out in our culture for both believers and atheists alike.

 

[Estro Felino]

I say biblical because myths such as good vs evil can play out in our culture for both believers and atheists alike.

To me good and evil do exist.

And as the Bible says, angels shall come forth and sever the wicked from among the just.
And many Christians are evil...and there are good atheists.
So faith is irrelevant.

And forcing people to die in a war that they don't want to fight is an unforgivable sin.
There is no possibility of salvation.
Not even Purgatory.

 

[metis]

Putin invaded to stop the civil war as well and he ended up causing even more unnecessary deaths just as Nato does. It makes no difference what side war mongers are on, they are all the same and you glorify the ones on the good side, pathetic.

The aggressor was Putin, pure and simple, and he has done the same earlier on to other areas if you remember correctly.

 

[lukethethird]

The aggressor was Putin, pure and simple, and he has done the same earlier on to other areas if you remember correctly.

Yes, the aggressor was Putin, and who has benefitted from that aggression ever since? Earlier on taught us how Putin responds to the crossing of red lines, so there was no question about what Putin would do with regards to Ukraine. Putin uses aggression to solve his problems so Nato got the war they wanted and now they can go about weakening Russia, all at the expense of Ukrainian lives and at a fraction of the cost of the US military budget. Plenty of evil to go around, don't see any good in any of it, but then again, I'm antiwar, you know, otherwise known as a Putin sympathizer by the cheerleaders of the "good and righteous" nato bombers on this thread.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I have come to the conclusion that you are in fact a child and that you glorify war.

Wonderful. Not once have I ever glorified or promoted war. All I have ever done is point out your factual inaccuracy and your lies of omission. Try harder.

Nato bombing is good and justified in your shallow opinion

Another straight-up lie. I even explicitly stated that I never claimed the NATO bombings were either good or justified.

and anyone that does not agree with you is an imperialist.

No, people who make arguments that excuse imperialism are imperialist. Hence, you're an imperialist.

Putin invaded to stop the civil war

You mean, the civil war Russia caused by sending in soldiers and funding separatist movements and then specifically instructing them to seize territory? That civil war?

as well and he ended up causing even more unnecessary deaths just as Nato does. It makes no difference what side war mongers are on, they are all the same and you glorify the ones on the good side, pathetic.

You haven't even tried to refute a single factual claim I have made, because you can't. You know you've been dishonest, you know you have deliberately misrepresented history in order to try and legitimise Russia's invasion of Ukraine, and you know that you cannot win any honest discussion with facts. So, you resort to baseless, childish, personal attacks.

Apparently, I'm a warmongering imperialist for being honest about history and presenting - rather than deliberately omitting - facts, and for repeatedly and explicitly stating that I hate wars of imperialism and undue foreign intervention, whether initiated by Russia, the USA or anyone else.

Meanwhile, you puff yourself up as a hero of anti-imperialism, pacifism and the people of Ukraine by explicitly lying about Ukraine's history, suggesting that weaker countries should have their futures determined by more powerful nations, referring to invasions as "border disputes", leaving HUGE SWATHES of facts out of your analysis in order to try and paint Ukraine as an aggressor whose invasion was inevitable, constantly ignore or downplay Russia's history of actual invasion and imperialism, dismiss popular revolutions against leaders who set foreign agents to shoot their own people as a "US backed coup", and insist that giving Ukraine the ability to resist the Russian forces invading their country is bad.

You
are
an
imperialist.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Yes, the aggressor was Putin, and who has benefitted from that aggression ever since? Earlier on taught us how Putin responds to the crossing of red lines, so there was no question about what Putin would do with regards to Ukraine.

Translation: "When powerful nations threaten others with invasion, we should do what they want, because appeasement totally works and who cares what those countries they're threatening with invasion want, anyway. Russia gets to do what it wants because it's big and scary."

Classic anti-imperialist position, that.

Putin uses aggression to solve his problems so Nato got the war they wanted and now they can go about weakening Russia, all at the expense of Ukrainian lives and at a fraction of the cost of the US military budget.

Again, putting the blame for the war anywhere but at the feet of Russia and completely ignoring the wants of the Ukrainian people. Stop pretending you care about them when you're perfectly willing to sell them out to Russia if it keeps the scary bald man happy.

Plenty of evil to go around, don't see any good in any of it, but then again, I'm antiwar, you know, otherwise known as a Putin sympathizer by the cheerleaders of the "good and righteous" nato bombers on this thread.

Thus, you expose that none of this has anything to do with any actual, material reality. It's all about you and your ego. It's pathetic. You'd rather lie about history and misrepresent facts if it means you get to think of yourself as morally superior to us "warmongering imperialists" who have the audacity to think that maybe not every geopolitical issue can be laid at the feet of America, or that allowing powerful tyrants to threaten other countries and get what they want is bad actually, or that Ukraine should have the power to defend itself.

No, this war is clearly all about YOU and your tankie friends, desperate to stand at the pulpit before us poor, propagandized sheeple and lecture on us how "DID YOU KNOW AMERICA BAD?! THEREFORE, HOW CAN YOU CONDEMN?? *self-satisfied smirk, winky-face*"

I have made it clear in this thread and others. I know more than you. Many posters do. We caught you deliberately omitting historical facts numerous times. I have caught you explicitly engaging in a lie that Putin himself popularized.

We are better than you, we are more ideologically consistent than you, and we don't have to lie and omit facts to buoy our personal delusions about being the anti-war vanguard while explicitly excusing wars of imperialism and ignoring multiple genocides and war crimes in an effort to paint imperialist nations as victims of circumstance because something something America bad.

 

[lukethethird]

Translation: "When powerful nations threaten others with invasion, we should do what they want, because appeasement totally works and who cares what those countries they're threatening with invasion want, anyway. Russia gets to do what it wants because it's big and scary."

Classic anti-imperialist position, that.


Again, putting the blame for the war anywhere but at the feet of Russia and completely ignoring the wants of the Ukrainian people. Stop pretending you care about them when you're perfectly willing to sell them out to Russia if it keeps the scary bald man happy.


Thus, you expose that none of this has anything to do with any actual, material reality. It's all about you and your ego. It's pathetic. You'd rather lie about history and misrepresent facts if it means you get to think of yourself as morally superior to us "warmongering imperialists" who have the audacity to think that maybe not every geopolitical issue can be laid at the feet of America, or that allowing powerful tyrants to threaten other countries and get what they want is bad actually, or that Ukraine should have the power to defend itself.

No, this war is clearly all about YOU and your tankie friends, desperate to stand at the pulpit before us poor, propagandized sheeple and lecture on us how "DID YOU KNOW AMERICA BAD?! THEREFORE, HOW CAN YOU CONDEMN?? *self-satisfied smirk, winky-face*"

I have made it clear in this thread and others. I know more than you. Many posters do. We caught you deliberately omitting historical facts numerous times. I have caught you explicitly engaging in a lie that Putin himself popularized.

We are better than you, we are more ideologically consistent than you, and we don't have to lie and omit facts to buoy our personal delusions about being the anti-war vanguard while explicitly excusing wars of imperialism and ignoring multiple genocides and war crimes in an effort to paint imperialist nations as victims of circumstance because something something America bad.

Blah blah blah, so America and nato desperately need defending after all is said and done and by golly, you're the one to do it, well, bully for you.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Blah blah blah, so America and nato desperately need defending after all is said and done and by golly, you're the one to do it, well, bully for you.

Yeah, that's totally what I wrote.

Seriously, you need to grow up.

 

[ajay0]

Putin uses aggression to solve his problems so Nato got the war they wanted and now they can go about weakening Russia, all at the expense of Ukrainian lives and at a fraction of the cost of the US military budget.

This explains the situation in a nutshell. Profits for the military-industrial complex without involving western troops as their high casualties would create anti-war movements at home leading to ending the war. Ukrainian lives lost would not be an issue as that could instead inflame sentiment for the war to continue and prop up weapons sales.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

This explains the situation in a nutshell. Profits for the military-industrial complex without involving western troops as their high casualties would create anti-war movements at home leading to ending the war. Ukrainian lives lost would not be an issue as that could instead inflame sentiment for the war to continue.

Once again, your analysis removes any agency from both Ukraine and Russia, and is about as deep as a puddle. It's conspiratorial mush.

 

[ajay0]

Once again, your analysis removes any agency from both Ukraine and Russia, and is about as deep as a puddle. It's conspiratorial mush.

Conspiracy or not ,the shareholders of defense companies are very happy these days though.

 

[Flankerl]

Well if Muscovy retreats into its own territory this problem would fix itself wouldn't it?

I know this is way too much for tankies to understand.

 

[exchemist]

This explains the situation in a nutshell. Profits for the military-industrial complex without involving western troops as their high casualties would create anti-war movements at home leading to ending the war. Ukrainian lives lost would not be an issue as that could instead inflame sentiment for the war to continue and prop up weapons sales.

The Ukrainians are begging for more weapons.

Nobody threatened Putin, nor was he put up to invading Ukraine by Western arms companies. What a stupid suggestion. You people need to get your propaganda stories straight. The last thing western countries want is another drain on their economies, when they are trying to repay the debts incurred during the pandemic and finance the huge changes needed to address climate change. But they have to support Ukraine, or Putin will try to lop and/or intimidate more chunks of Europe.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Conspiracy or not ,the shareholders of defense companies are very happy these days though.

Whose fault is it when somebody kicks your door in and the locksmiths benefit from you having to pay to put a new door in? Is it the fault of the locksmith, or the person who kicked open your door so you needed to pay a locksmith?

 

[ajay0]

Whose fault is it when somebody kicks your door in and the locksmiths benefit from you having to pay to put a new door in? Is it the fault of the locksmith, or the person who kicked open your door so you needed to pay a locksmith?

What if the locksmith, eyeing business profits, decided to provoke the neighbor to kick your door in !

 

[ImmortalFlame]

What if the locksmith, eyeing business profits, decided to provoke the neighbor to kick your door in !

Then it's still your neighbour's fault for being easily provoked. Particularly if, prior to provocation, they repeatedly threatened to smash your door in and made repeated and very overt efforts to do so over and over again.

Not that it matters. They were not provoked.