Natural vs. Supernatural: Real Distinction or Made-Up Crap?

[Ben Dhyan]

Natural vs. Supernatural: Real Distinction or Made-Up Crap?

It's all one......but the conceptual mind sees it as two...that's all...

 

[outhouse]

the conceptual mind..

That's your religion or belief not mine, or academia.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

That's your religion or belief not mine, or academia.

It's just plain english....conceptual mind just means thinking mind...you know when the neurons synapses are firing....sheeesh

 

[dust1n]

That's not what "tangible" means

1
a : capable of being perceived especially by the sense of touch : palpable

b : substantially real : material
2
: capable of being precisely identified or realized by the mind <her grief was tangible>
3
: capable of being appraised at an actual or approximate value <tangible assets>

Tangible | Definition of tangible by Merriam-Webster

tan·gi·ble
(tăn′jə-bəl)
adj.
1.
a. Discernible by the touch; palpable: a tangible roughness of the skin.
b. Possible to touch.
c. Possible to be treated as fact; real or concrete: tangible evidence.
2. Possible to understand or realize: the tangible benefits of the plan.
3. Law Relating to or being property of a physical nature, such as land, objects, and goods.
n.
1. Something palpable or concrete.
2. tangibles Property having a physical form.

tangible - definition of tangible by The Free Dictionary

Definition of tangible in English:
adjective
Perceptible by touch: the atmosphere of neglect and abandonment was almost tangible
More example sentences
Clear and definite; real: the emphasis is now on tangible results

tangible: definition of tangible in Oxford dictionary (American English) (US)

A better word escapes me, I suppose.

You acknowledge that every god ever claimed is supposedly inside human comprehension, at least to some degree.

What god is inside human comprehension? I mean, I don't acknowledge any god I'm aware is supposedly of human comprehension.

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

1 Corinthians

103 No human vision can encompass Him, whereas He encompasses all human vision: for He alone is unfathomable, all-aware.

Al-An'am 6

As I tried to point out before, every god is supposed to have had some effect on the universe as a whole or things in it.

Sure. If there was any physical evidence that anything like this had happened, I would it compelling. God's supposed influence on the world is nothing something that is to be understood.

 

[Lyndon]

Based on the evidence presented to me personally, God is quite tangible (to me)!!

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Based on the evidence presented to me personally, God is quite tangible (to me)!!

So what is the evidence for you personally?

 

[Lyndon]

Well then it wouldn't be personal, would it?? But basically its way to much evidence to put in words without lots of explanation, etc. But basically seeing God work through my life, seeing God in nature, etc etc

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

1
a : capable of being perceived especially by the sense of touch : palpable

b : substantially real : material
2
: capable of being precisely identified or realized by the mind <her grief was tangible>
3
: capable of being appraised at an actual or approximate value <tangible assets>

Tangible | Definition of tangible by Merriam-Webster

tan·gi·ble
(tăn′jə-bəl)
adj.
1.
a. Discernible by the touch; palpable: a tangible roughness of the skin.
b. Possible to touch.
c. Possible to be treated as fact; real or concrete: tangible evidence.
2. Possible to understand or realize: the tangible benefits of the plan.
3. Law Relating to or being property of a physical nature, such as land, objects, and goods.
n.
1. Something palpable or concrete.
2. tangibles Property having a physical form.

tangible - definition of tangible by The Free Dictionary

Definition of tangible in English:
adjective
Perceptible by touch: the atmosphere of neglect and abandonment was almost tangible
More example sentences
Clear and definite; real: the emphasis is now on tangible results

tangible: definition of tangible in Oxford dictionary (American English) (US)

A better word escapes me, I suppose.

As I said: that's not what "tangible" means. I can't tell what meaning you intended. Your second choice, "understandable", is begging the question.

What god is inside human comprehension? I mean, I don't acknowledge any god I'm aware is supposedly of human comprehension.

Every god I've ever heard of has supposedly had an effect on the physical universe.

When I say say that God is supposed to be at least partly comprehensible, I don't mean that it's claimed that anyone knows everything about God (note the "partly"). I'm talking about the standard we use for other things:

For instance, if I find cat prints in my garden, I can say "this is a sign that there are cats in the neighbourhood." I can say this even if I don't know anything about cat physiology or psychology.

When it comes to gods, believers are usually quick to point out what they consider "god prints", whether it's claims of miracle or divine revelation, or even the existence of the universe itself. If we take them at face value, determining the existence of gods is as straightforward as determining the extistence of cats: in either case, we don't need to know anything about the gods or cats inner workings or motivations. All we need to be able to identify it as the root cause for some physical effect.

Sure. If there was any physical evidence that anything like this had happened, I would it compelling.

So every god-belief is fundamentally irrational?

God's supposed influence on the world is nothing something that is to be understood.

1: Says who?
2: Not understood; just evident.

God-claims aren't somehow exempt from rational inquiry; they just don't do a good job of meeting a normal standard of evidence.

 

[dust1n]

As I said: that's not what "tangible" means. I can't tell what meaning you intended. Your second choice, "understandable", is begging the question.

Tangible as in the entity in question isn't posited as something beyond human comprehension or material existence.

Every god I've ever heard of has supposedly had an effect on the physical universe.

When I say say that God is supposed to be at least partly comprehensible, I don't mean that it's claimed that anyone knows everything about God (note the "partly"). I'm talking about the standard we use for other things:

For instance, if I find cat prints in my garden, I can say "this is a sign that there are cats in the neighbourhood." I can say this even if I don't know anything about cat physiology or psychology.

How exactly does on identify a cat print not knowing what a cat's foot looks like?

When it comes to gods, believers are usually quick to point out what they consider "god prints", whether it's claims of miracle or divine revelation, or even the existence of the universe itself. If we take them at face value, determining the existence of gods is as straightforward as determining the extistence of cats: in either case, we don't need to know anything about the gods or cats inner workings or motivations. All we need to be able to identify it as the root cause for some physical effect.

If you posit everything in existence as a God print, and infer from that as evidence for God's existence, then nothing is meaningful is being said. I'm certainly quick to point out what I consider "godless prints" around the universe. But I can't look at those prints and know anything about godlessness.

So every god-belief is fundamentally irrational?

For the most part.

1: Says who?
2: Not understood; just evident.

God-claims aren't somehow exempt from rational inquiry; they just don't do a good job of meeting a normal standard of evidence.

The Bible and Qur'an.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Tangible as in the entity in question isn't posited as something beyond human comprehension or material existence.

Everything is beyond human comprehension to some degree, and I'm not sure how something is "beyond material existence" when it's supposed to interact with the material universe in all sorts of ways.

How exactly does on identify a cat print not knowing what a cat's foot looks like?

That's not my problem - that's for the cat-claiming people to sort out. But imagine a hypothetical conversation:

- A: there are cats in the neighbourhood. Look -cat prints!
- B: how do you know those are cat prints?
- A: ummm... I don't.

What's the appropriate response?
1. B: Then you were just making it up when you said that there are cats in the neighbourhood. Really, you have no idea.

2. B: I guess cats are beyond the limits of human inquiry.

The Bible and Qur'an.

The Bible also says that bats are birds. Why should I care what it has to say?

 

[Quintessence]

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[dust1n]

Everything is beyond human comprehension to some degree, and I'm not sure how something is "beyond material existence" when it's supposed to interact with the material universe in all sorts of ways.

Something proposed, like an idea of an entity, that interacts with the material world in a manner which cannot be comprehended or observed, in which resides in a position higher than the material world itself, would be something that is beyond human comprehension, if it were to exist, thus supernatural.

That's not my problem - that's for the cat-claiming people to sort out. But imagine a hypothetical conversation:

- A: there are cats in the neighbourhood. Look -cat prints!
- B: how do you know those are cat prints?
- A: ummm... I don't.

What's the appropriate response?
1. B: Then you were just making it up when you said that there are cats in the neighbourhood. Really, you have no idea.

2. B: I guess cats are beyond the limits of human inquiry.

Well, there are other possible responses, but I do not intend to say that the supernatural is beyond human inquiry, just beyond human comprehension. There's no possible way to gain knowledge about a substance that is subject to material rules that pretty much ever known observable thing is. So how could it ever be understood?

The Bible also says that bats are birds. Why should I care what it has to say?

Just an illustration that generally the same religions which purport the existence of god also attest to god being ultimately unknowable. Sure, you could know some things. Apparently, god you tell you directly and no one else, if your Anabaptist. But I don't equate someone claiming to know something as them actually knowing it. Just because someone sees the god print doesn't actually make it there.