Near Death experiences and the scientific method.

[Ben Dhyan]

Here is what you asked him:

"So you believe atheists do not reject spiritual knowledge?"

You have an assumption as part of your question. Using leading questions is a dishonest debating technique and should be avoided. It is rather clear that you are implying that your belief is that atheists do this. And that is where you put a burden of proof upon yourself.

The extreme example of this is "Have you quit beating your wife yet?" If I asked you that seriously it would easily be breaking the rules here. Since your question involved a term that you cannot even define much less support that might be the case with your question, but it it still not wise to ask one in that form.

So fine, let me rephrase it, he said...."Atheism is not the rejection of spiritual knowledge.". Dan From Smithville, do you believe Atheists who believe Atheism is not the rejection of spiritual knowledge reject or not reject spiritual knowledge?

And I ask you the same simple unambiguous question since you are an atheist, do you reject or not reject spiritual knowledge?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Many of us have been close to death. Experiencing hallucinations while the brain is under stress of trauma is a pretty unremarkable event.
What is remarkable is that some people think those hallucinations were actual events where the consciousness left the body.

The woman in question is merely making unsupported and unverifiable claims, so really not sure what we are supposed to learn from that (other than people can be convinced their hallucinations were real - which we already knew).

So let me get his clear, have you or have you not had an actual near death experience, regardless of what was experienced? If you have, please provide details?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

People can reject the idea of the gods of religion but still believe in some non-specific supernatural power or spiritualism. The term "atheist" could apply to them.

So do you believe in non-specific supernatural or spiritual power? Do you consider yourself an Atheist?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Atheism is not "the rejection of spiritual knowledge".
It is the rejection of the existence of the gods of religion.
However, many atheists are also rational, critical thinkers who require evidence before accepting extraordinary claims, so they likewise do not accept "spiritual knowledge", or any other form of evidence-free, nonsensical woo.

So are you an Atheist and do you accept spiritual knowledge?

 

[Subduction Zone]

So fine, let me rephrase it, he said...."Atheism is not the rejection of spiritual knowledge.". Dan From Smithville, do you believe Atheists who believe Atheism is not the rejection of spiritual knowledge reject or not reject spiritual knowledge?

And I ask you the same simple unambiguous question since you are an atheist, do you reject or not reject spiritual knowledge?

That is no better. If you want to claim that a certain trait exists then you must be ready to define and defend it. What do you mean by "spiritual knowledge" in the first place?

How would you demonstrate that it exists?

I cannot answer your question since an undefined trait or quality is just nonsense until properly defined and demonstrated to exist.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Interestingly, around 50% of people who report NDEs were never in any risk of dying.

I wonder how many of those were aware of NDE's before reporting they had one. Perhaps it is an experience that results from some aspect of physiology and being in a hospital. People are often laying down and surrounded by standing people. Maybe that triggers something.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Atheism is not "the rejection of spiritual knowledge".
It is the rejection of the existence of the gods of religion.
However, many atheists are also rational, critical thinkers who require evidence before accepting extraordinary claims, so they likewise do not accept "spiritual knowledge", or any other form of evidence-free, nonsensical woo.

Most of the atheists here tell me they do not accept theism because they have found no reason to accept it. There are a few atheists here also that do appear to reject theism on a belief level. They claim that deities do not exist.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

That is no better. If you want to claim that a certain trait exists then you must be ready to define and defend it. What do you mean by "spiritual knowledge" in the first place?

How would you demonstrate that it exists?

I cannot answer your question since an undefined trait or quality is just nonsense until properly defined and demonstrated to exist.

Sadly if a person has not had a spiritual experience, then they just possibly can't know, at least yet. But that does not mean it does not exist, it just means that they are not sufficiently evolved, their spiritual faculty has not yet been opened. Fwiw, it will not be opened until appropriate spiritual practice is introduced into their life.

"Knock and the door will be opened, ask and you will receive".

 

[Subduction Zone]

Sadly if a person has not had a spiritual experience, then they just possibly can't know, at least yet. But that does not mean it does not exist, it just means that they are not sufficiently evolved, their spiritual faculty has not yet been opened. Fwiw, it will not be opened until appropriate spiritual practice is introduced into their life.

"Knock and the door will be opened, ask and you will receive".

Now you are making it sound fictitious. Real events are usually testable. How would you properly test your supposed experience? Right now you appear to be only using circular reasoning and that does not support your beliefs at all. It only demonstrates prejudice.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Now you are making it sound fictitious. Real events are usually testable. How would you properly test your supposed experience? Right now you appear to be only using circular reasoning and that does not support your beliefs at all. It only demonstrates prejudice.

I just told you, begin spiritual practice and you will eventually have spiritual knowledge. You ask for proof and I explain how you can have it, but instead of accepting the challenge, you want proof within the constricts of the physical domain when it is beyond the physical domain.

"Knock and the door will be opened, ask and you will receive".

 

[KWED]

So let me get his clear, have you or have you not had an actual near death experience, regardless of what was experienced? If you have, please provide details?

What, specifically, do you mean by "near death experience"?

 

[KWED]

So do you believe in non-specific supernatural or spiritual power?

No.

Do you consider yourself an Atheist?

Yes.
But as I said, the two are not mutually exclusive.

 

[KWED]

I wonder how many of those were aware of NDE's before reporting they had one. Perhaps it is an experience that results from some aspect of physiology and being in a hospital. People are often laying down and surrounded by standing people. Maybe that triggers something.

I had a "spiritual" experience whilst in hospital. Being a rationalist, scientist, atheist, etc - I understood that it was a combination of the painkillers, several days of nil-by-mouth, lack of sleep and the stressful environment.
To someone with existing belief in the supernatural, it is entirely understandable why they would think it was real, and constitute "evidence" for their beliefs.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

I just told you, begin spiritual practice and you will eventually have spiritual knowledge. You ask for proof and I explain how you can have it, but instead of accepting the challenge, you want proof within the constricts of the physical domain when it is beyond the physical domain.

"Knock and the door will be opened, ask and you will receive".

So if I ask myself to believe in aliens eventually I will and that will be proof of aliens?

 

[KWED]

Most of the atheists here tell me they do not accept theism because they have found no reason to accept it. There are a few atheists here also that do appear to reject theism on a belief level. They claim that deities do not exist.

I have come to the conclusion that the gods of religion do not exist because of the evidence and arguments against them, not simply because of the lack of evidence for them.
As for supernatural forces about which no positive claims are made, I cannot be certain but consider it very unlikely.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

I had a "spiritual" experience whilst in hospital. Being a rationalist, scientist, atheist, etc - I understood that it was a combination of the painkillers, several days of nil-by-mouth, lack of sleep and the stressful environment.
To someone with existing belief in the supernatural, it is entirely understandable why they would think it was real, and constitute "evidence" for their beliefs.

There are so many varied claims all supposed to be evidence, but they are subjective and there are physical answers that most of the claimants ignore. I cannot say that some of them are not real, but the reality of it is that those with real experiences have no more means to show me than those with merely imagined experiences do.

I cannot even know myself if the experiences I have had were real or imagined. Maybe I am mentally ill and just don't know it. I have no way to test the experience internally or externally.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

I have come to the conclusion that the gods of religion do not exist because of the evidence and arguments against them, not simply because of the lack of evidence for them.
As for supernatural forces about which no positive claims are made, I cannot be certain but consider it very unlikely.

I accept that as a rational position while maintaining my own belief. I make no claims regarding what I believe, except to say that I do. That seems like the most rational means to believe something untestable that I can come to.

 

[KWED]

Sadly if a person has not had a spiritual experience, then they just possibly can't know, at least yet. But that does not mean it does not exist, it just means that they are not sufficiently evolved, their spiritual faculty has not yet been opened. Fwiw, it will not be opened until appropriate spiritual practice is introduced into their life.

"Knock and the door will be opened, ask and you will receive".

So IOW, until you believe in god, you cannot believe in god.

People do have such experiences but do not attribute them to the supernatural because they understand the nature of the mind and do not have the confirmation bias of existing belief that such things are real.

 

[KWED]

"Knock and the door will be opened, ask and you will receive".

And I suppose that those who knock and ask and get nothing in return aren't knocking or asking with enough belief or conviction. So just more circular reasoning/no true Scotsman fallacies, but cognitive dissonance prevents you from understanding this.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

So IOW, until you believe in god, you cannot believe in god.

People do have such experiences but do not attribute them to the supernatural because they understand the nature of the mind and do not have the confirmation bias of existing belief that such things are real.

I think that is a very interesting and important question. Forms of it are in my mind often.

People go with what they are familiar with. Something strange happens. It must be ghosts, spirits, etc. Even if the strange has a reasonable explanation, some unthought of explanation or not enough information to explain at all. People immediately fill in the blank with their favorite answer and consider it solved.