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Near Death experiences and the scientific method.

Lekatt

Member
Premium Member
It's true. Every human being has a blind spot - the spot on our retina where the optic nerve connects doesn't contain any light-sensitive photoreceptor cells and so we are blind in that part of our field of vision. We don't notice this spot where we actually can't see anything because our brains, along with the information from our other eye, fill in the missing parts of our field of vision with what it thinks should be there. This is demonstrable and verifiable.

I'm not sure why you don't think things are stored in the brain but we know that episodic memories, for example, are stored in the hippocampus.

You really should brush up on what we know about the human brain if you're going to be making these kinds of definitive statements.
I would recommend "The Brain That Changes Itself" by Norman Doidge to start.


The blindness in this case was actually caused by a lesion on the visual cortex within the brain. The patient had experienced a stroke which had caused the lesion. Her vision was fine before the stroke, so her brain had ample experience with binocular vision for her entire life up to that point. For months after her stroke she had no idea that she actually could not see out of her left eye, because her brain (with the help of her right eye and with it's previous encounters with the environment) was filling in what it thought should be there. It was only after her doctor noticed something particular about the way she was interacting with her environment that she suspected the patient wasn't actually viewing what was in front of her. Then she had a person sit to the left of the patient, in her periphery, (and without telling the patient) and asked the patient if she could see him. Turns out she couldn't. It turned out that if she knew the person was there, she could see them. But if she was not told the person was there, she could not see him. Now clearly, memory must be stored in the brain or her brain wouldn't have the memory to fill in the blanks for her.
I can't remember the name of the book at the moment but I will try to come up with it and let you know. It's pretty fascinating, really.


You kind of are. You keep trying to attribute functions of the brain to spirits and spirit worlds when it isn't necessary. When we already have actual explanations with actual explanatory power for these things.


I didn't see any disembodied minds floating around. Did you?

Data is not stored in the brain, I believe this because no data has been found in the brain. We keep going in circles saying the same thing in different words. The brain was dead in the video yet all these things where heard and seen by the patient and verified by the doctor. There are more of these videos, a lot more. It's a no-starter to keep pushing the brain as something intelligent. Why not the kidney, or liver. People live after the death of their body, that is a fact. I call what lives "the spirit" so if you can't change that with real evidence why keep trying.
 

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
No, no, there has been nothing in the brain found by researchers in the way of data.
There is lots that has been found how how the brain stores information. We're a long way from understanding everything but to say we know nothing is still a lie.

Regardless, nothing has been found by researches in the way of data collected and stored by a spirit or soul, why are you treating the two propositions so differently?

It does not matter what you call it. It is what it is.
That's a statement of faith. This thread is meant to be about scientific method.
 

Lekatt

Member
Premium Member
What do you mean by this? Are memories not "data?"


It certainly does matter what you call it and how you define it, given that it's the basis for your entire hypothesis.
Again, you can't explain mysteries with other mysteries and expect to have explanatory power.


So they have a memory of these experiences, do they? Memories are stored in the brain via the hippocampus and accompanying pathways, so what they were recounting was a memory, that was stored in their physical brain.

How does the doctor verify what the patient's spirit supposedly saw while it was supposedly dead? And again, what is a spirit?

I will show another video that may help you understand.

"Researchers at NYU's Langone Medical Center have conducted a study of patients who have experienced near-death experiences, and the results are intriguing and chilling. Dr. Sam Parnia, the director of resuscitation research at NYU Langone, joins CBSN to discuss the findings of this mind bending study."

 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Data is not stored in the brain, I believe this because no data has been found in the brain.
I just gave you an example. :shrug:
I supposed if you ignore it you can continue to declare that the brain doesn't store anything.

When did you ever show that data is stored in disembodied spirits?

We keep going in circles saying the same thing in different words.
Yes, because you hardly ever respond to what I'm saying or answer my questions.

The brain was dead in the video yet all these things where heard and seen by the patient and verified by the doctor. There are more of these videos, a lot more. It's a no-starter to keep pushing the brain as something intelligent. Why not the kidney, or liver. People live after the death of their body, that is a fact. I call what lives "the spirit" so if you can't change that with real evidence why keep trying.
It's a no starter to keep pushing the brain as something intelligent? Huh?
Why not the kidney? Well, because it doesn't have any neurotransmitters, cortices, amygdala, etc. What a strange question.

You can't say that it is a fact that people live after the death of their body. You need to actually demonstrate that. These videos do not demonstrate that. Because what you are claiming is that there are a whole bunch of disembodied minds floating all around everywhere. But you can't point one out to anyone or measure it in any tangible way that would demonstrate the veracity of your claim.
What you've got is a mysterious thing and then you just slap an answer onto it that isn't actually an answer at all because you haven't even defined your terms.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
seriously explore the relationship of near-death experiences and traditional Christian faith.
That is also a valid field of study as would be the NDE relationship to any religion and even atheism.

That is different from the implied assertion he is manipulating the data to make it fit a preconceived conclusion. By the way, my personal opinion is that the NDE is indeed supportive of the Christian Faith (but not exclusively).
 
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gnostic

The Lost One
Data is not stored in the brain, I believe this because no data has been found in the brain. We keep going in circles saying the same thing in different words. The brain was dead in the video yet all these things where heard and seen by the patient and verified by the doctor. There are more of these videos, a lot more. It's a no-starter to keep pushing the brain as something intelligent. Why not the kidney, or liver. People live after the death of their body, that is a fact. I call what lives "the spirit" so if you can't change that with real evidence why keep trying.

I am no expert about the brain anatomy or brain physiology, but you talking about “data” being stored in brain, the part of brain that associated with memory...whatever that part of the brain is called.

But it really depends on what you mean by “data”. I can only assume you are talking about something learned, information, or something experienced. These information or experiences stored in memory.

From what I understand memory are formed through forming connection between neurons in the memory part of brain (help me out here...), and I believe this “connection” is called “synapse”.

These synapses allow for transmitting pulses (or signals or information) from one neuron to the other neuron.

And from what I can tell, these neurons are special types of cells, but they are cells nonetheless.

Memory through interconnection of neurons aren’t the only one that the brain controlled; the brain also controlled our motor functions and our sensory perceptions (eg what we see, hear, smell or touch), through the connections (synapses) of the neurons.

As I understand it, what you called “data”, the memory neurons are still in the brain.

When a person’s died, under normal circumstances, the brain does die, and if the brain don’t restart, don’t restart the heart and lungs to function, to get those blood pumping, for the blood to supply the brain with needed oxygen, then the cells, like the neurons will actually start to die.

As I understand it, the heart need electrical current or electrical pulses to cause heart’s action of pumping the blood throughout the body. These pulses come the nerve, from the electrical synapses.

My points are the electrical synapses will have stopped in the brain, but these electrical synapses in the brain, spinal cord and nerves, can all be restarted by the chemical synapses.

The pulses that are transmitted from neurons to neurons via the synapses, those pulses aren’t just “electrical”, chemical synapses also function, I believed these chemical synapses are referred to as neurotransmitters.

During emergency, medical staff often connect electrodes on the surface of person’s chest, that are connected to ECG machine that measure the electrical activity of the heart. They don’t normally connect electrodes to person’s head to device that can measure brain activity, because people in ER are trying to get the heart working and the breathing working. And even if you have machine connected to the head, it will only measure the electrical activities, not the chemical activities, not the chemical synapses.

My points are when a person have NDE experience, their brain cells or neurons are not dead. As long as neurotransmitters or chemical synapses are still connected, then memory or “data” should remain intact, or mostly intact, if the synapses did die when deprived of oxygen.

Here is computer analogy. The hard disk drive store data on the disk, where the data can be written and read by reading the magnetic fields stored on the disk. You stored data are still there even when you disconnect the drive from the computer, and reconnect it months or years later. It need to power up the computer to read off the drive.

Likewise, as long as the neurons or brain cells don’t die, the brain can retrieve data from memory, because the synapses are still connecting the neurons together in neural network of our brain.

Anyway, the brain are far more complex than any computer storage devices.

But I would suggest that you ask someone who know biology better than me, about neurons and synapses and brain biology.

But what you do need to know, that there are chemical synapses - not just electrical synapses - that can pass pulses between neurons.

Lastly, there are no evidence that spirit and soul exist, and you possibly know that memory or person’s consciousness and emotion reside in the soul or spirit.

But there are evidence that chemical imbalance in the brain, brain damage or head trauma can affect a person’s memory, emotion and consciousness. Also some medication and drugs can also affect normal brain functions. These are definitely evidence that brain, not soul or spirit, are where information stored.
 
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Lekatt

Member
Premium Member
A TV show is created on a stage somewhere and the recording is sent to a satellite which in turn makes it available to your personal TV and you can watch the show at your home.

Now if your TV is damaged the picture could be blurred or even absence. If your brain is damaged your spirit will not be able to control your body according to the damage. The synapses of the brain are not proved to hold data. No data has ever been recovered from the brain.

I keep hearing that there is no evidence of spirit when there is in fact a huge amount of evidence as shown in the videos. There are a few universities now researching NDEs and finding they are real experiences of dead people still alive and fully observing the surrounds of their dead body. You can name the unseen observer what you will, but I call it the spirit.
 

Lekatt

Member
Premium Member
No, they were only "clinically dead" by heartbeat. There are other ways to be clinically dead. For example in none of them had a significant portion of cells die.
It is well-known that the brain stops (dies) functioning 11 seconds or less after the heart stops. Some have been clinically dead for an hour. The anti-spirit idea has led to grasping for straws or as an old sailor "any port in a storm." Face the truth and see where it goes, you might like it.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
It is well-known that the brain stops (dies) functioning 11 seconds or less after the heart stops. Some have been clinically dead for an hour. The anti-spirit idea has led to grasping for straws or as an old sailor "any port in a storm." Face the truth and see where it goes, you might like it.
That is rather inaccurate to say the least. Show me one case where a person had been without a heartbeat for an hour that was not on some sort of artificial life support.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
A TV show is created on a stage somewhere and the recording is sent to a satellite which in turn makes it available to your personal TV and you can watch the show at your home.

Now if your TV is damaged the picture could be blurred or even absence. If your brain is damaged your spirit will not be able to control your body according to the damage. The synapses of the brain are not proved to hold data. No data has ever been recovered from the brain.
More claims with no evidence. [/quote]

Is this supposed to be an analogy as to how you think spirits control bodies?

I guess I'll have to ask again for a third time, what do you mean by "data," exactly. Are memories data, in your opinion?


When did you demonstrate that spirits control our bodies? And how does that make any sense? And why would a disembodied mind be hindered by a physical injury?

The thing is that we know our brains control our bodies. This is demonstrable, for example, when a person has a stroke that leaves half of their body paralyzed.
This is demonstrable when we feel physical pain like stubbing our toe - it hurts because our brain tells us it hurts via sensory neurons that detect damage has occurred to our body which sends a message to our spinal cord where our spinal cord neurons send the pain message to our brain for further processing.
Another interesting example involves amputees who still feel pain in the limb that has been removed. That is because our bodies are basically spatially mapped out in our brains, so when a limb is removed, the accompanying map of that particular part of the body still exists within the brain, and so your brains thinks that the limb is still there. And even more remarkably, over time the brain can adjust for this by invading nearby spaces in the brain's body map so that if for instance, you touch a particular place on an amputee's cheek, that will feel to the amputee as if you are touching their missing leg. I'm wondering how your disembodied mind/spirit hypothesis accounts for this.



I keep hearing that there is no evidence of spirit when there is in fact a huge amount of evidence as shown in the videos. There are a few universities now researching NDEs and finding they are real experiences of dead people still alive and fully observing the surrounds of their dead body. You can name the unseen observer what you will, but I call it the spirit.
What evidence, specifically, from the videos, do you think points directly to disembodied minds and spirits? Specifically, please. Then please explain the exact mechanisms involved.

Nobody is saying the experience of almost dying didn't happen to anybody. It's your assertions and attribution of spirits and disembodied minds to such processes that are in question here and require some kind of evidential support and explanatory power.

Please respond to these queries and points as well as the many others I've pointed out to you only to have you ignore them and repeat yourself.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
The article has authenticity problems,
It's just a reference point for starting off.
Anesthesia awareness is an actual thing.

but do not apply to a clinically dead person with no blood in their head. You keep repeating and repeating the same claims that have been shown to be false. It's OK if you don't believe.
She was not in that state for the entirety of the surgery. You're just assuming she had these NDE memories after the blood had been drained from her head.
 
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tas8831

Well-Known Member
Data is not stored in the brain, I believe this because no data has been found in the brain.

How do you propose that you might find circuits in the brain?

Neurons do not operate like computers, you know that, right?
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
That is also a valid field of study as would be the NDE relationship to any religion and even atheism.

That is different from the implied assertion he is manipulating the data to make it fit a preconceived conclusion. By the way, my personal opinion is that the NDE is indeed supportive of the Christian Faith (but not exclusively).
I guess I can do it again:

1.
YOU:
Michael Sabom, M.D, conducted an excellent study of OBE among experiencers. Dr. Sabom identified a group of thirty-two patients who had a cardiac arrest, experienced an NDE, and visualized their own resuscitation efforts during the OBE stage of their NDE.
ME (quoting and linking to a review of one of his books):


Dr. Michael Sabom
"And he scrutinizes near-death experiences in the light of what the Bible has to say about death and dying, the realities of light and darkness, and the Gospel of Jesus Christ."

Hmmm.... seems like a devoted supernaturalist seeking ways to prop up his spiritual beliefs...​
2. You respond:
Lol. And who pray tell said that about the good doctor?
3. I reply:
A person that favorably reviewed one of his books.
Didn't you look into him? Or did you just believe him? Lol!
I mean, Google exists for more than looking for ways to prop up a belief. Like checking on the reliability of sources.​


To sum up so far -
YOU claim Sabom did this 'excellent study' on OBE
I reply with a quote from a review of one of his books, praising him for, in effect, "interpreting" the results through his bible beliefs, which I interpret as tainting his objectivity. Seems obvious.


4. Then, after apparently not clicking the link to the quote, and thus misinterpreting the quote, you wrote:

And further are we to assume that the skeptical quote is that important as opposed to just being skeptical suspicion raising? Next shouldn't we then be 'skeptical of the skeptics' too?
I see, so do you think it is reasonable to expect one to review everything ever said by anyone that reviewed a book of someone who I discuss,
Even individuals from that oft-maligned group called 'Christians' I feel can be competent to do quality NDE studies myself. I'm sure you would agree also that materialist/atheists should also be considered for a wish not to believe.

Holy lack of comprehension, Batman! Talk about missing the point!

5. I respond:

"Skeptical"? The quote SUPPORTED him! :rolleyes:

6. You reply - and this is where it gets even better:

Huh, I'm confused. Not that it matters, but the quote I was referring to was intended to cast skeptical doubt on Sabom's ability to be objective.

So, you admit to being confused, but then you go on to try to 'blame' me for... something...

7. I write:

I guess you are confused. The quote I offered was from a review of his book that was SUPPORTIVE of it , but referred to Sabom's evangelicals beliefs. IOW - he is witnessing.​

Yes, I do not feel that Sabom is being objective, for he puts a bible-spin on it, and it clearly appeals to the evangelical-type. But you can't have that:


8. You reply:

To claim 'he is witnessing' is not a supportive point even if the overall tone of the review is supportive.
And the NDE as presented by people like Sabom is not something that supports any narrow religious view so the point doesn't seem to be important.

Wow. You really do seem to have an issue with comprehension, and I say that as a conclusion and not an insult. It is as if you think I was still quoting or something. I - ME - I think he is witnessing, not the positive review! Which you could have easily seen if you had just clicked the link if you were uncertain.

Not only that, but you seem to have walled-off from your psyche the fact that your hero Sabom IS, in fact, an Evangelical-type who couches his NDE/OBE "research" in a Christian framework - as acknowledged by the original quote I provided!!!

Absolutely amazing...

And that brings us up to today, wherein you again try to foist your comprehension deficits and misinterpretations onto me.

My case is "documented" well enough - the quote that I provided (as well as the gist of Sabom's book) shows that he presents his NDE/OBE stuff within a pro-bible framework; I infer that this makes his stuff less than objective; you cannot seem to keep quotes and forum posts distinct in your mind and cannot accept your error in interpreting what I wrote.

I'll not respond to you on this specific subject again, as your obtuseness is absurd and sad.
 
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