That was the surgeon who did the operation. He later went public on TV special about Pam. There was nothing fake about it. The surgical team backed up what he testified to. You don't have to believe the truth if you don't want.
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Near Death experiences and the scientific method.
- Thread starter leroy
- Start date
That was the surgeon who did the operation. He later went public on TV special about Pam. There was nothing fake about it. The surgical team backed up what he testified to. You don't have to believe the truth if you don't want.
You are wrong, the surgeon clearly stated the events happened during the time she was clinically dead. Watch it again.
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
How on earth could the surgeon possibly demonstrate that?
The fact of the matter is, she was not in that state for the entirety of the operation. That's a fact that you seemingly want to ignore for some reason.
leroy
Well-Known Member
Wow you mean that Healing claims where tested and then proven to be wrong?........... wherent you claiming that these sort of “supernatural claims” are not testable?
This is an honest question, I don’t remember who said what, but from memory I am almost sure that you made the assertion that supernatural claims can’t be tested, …….. which is obviously wrong because you already provided an example where such claims where tested.
He was there so he knew when the events happened. It is very easy to figure out.
leroy
Well-Known Member
I think we disagree at a fundamental level.
I (and 99.99% of the worlds population) would conclude that Ghost are real after making an unambiguous observation of a nebulous image of someone who died and saw him steeling the keys (with other witnesses observing the same thing)
And the same applies to OBEs if there where cases where people describe accurately and with detail stuff from other rooms , most people would accept it as strong evidence for OBEs.
Only crazy super skeptical fanatics would disagree ,… but if you decide to be super skeptical about supernatural claims, such that not even clear verifiable and direct observations would not convince you, you should be equally skeptical about your own personal world view today.
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
He knows exactly when her memories formed? He knows the exact moment when she supposedly left her body?
Gimme a break.
He knew the exact moment when the events happened that she saw and heard.
Thank you for nice information
Rekayasa Teknologi
Pusat Neurosains UHAMKA – Integrity-Trust-Compassion
Universitas Muhammadiyah Prof. Dr. HAMKA
Rekayasa Teknologi
Pusat Neurosains UHAMKA – Integrity-Trust-Compassion
Universitas Muhammadiyah Prof. Dr. HAMKA
joelr
Well-Known Member
Again there is reason to doubt this experience.
"
Critics say that the amount of time which Reynolds was "flatlined" is generally misrepresented and suggest that her NDE occurred while under general anaesthesia when the brain was still active, hours before Reynolds underwent hypothermic cardiac arrest.[7][8][9]
Anesthesiologist Gerald Woerlee analyzed the case, and concluded that Reynolds' ability to perceive events during her surgery was the result of "anesthesia awareness".[10]
According to the psychologist Chris French:
Woerlee, an anesthesiologist with many years of clinical experience, has considered this case in detail and remains unconvinced of the need for a paranormal explanation... [He] draws attention to the fact that Reynolds could only give a report of her experience some time after she recovered from the anesthetic as she was still intubated when she regained consciousness. This would provide some opportunity for her to associate and elaborate upon the sensations she had experienced
"
By only allowing one side of the debate you are using confirmation bias because this case is no solid evidence?
There are also millions of people who are brought back to life after a short period of time who experience nothing. When people get general anesthesia they always report no dreams, the second they go under the next thing they remember is when they wake up. Their consciousness is shut off and restarts when they wake up. They have no experiences whatsoever.
Let me explain again. Her head was without blood, her eyes were taped shut, her ears were plugged, and she saw the events during the time she was clinically dead from a position above her body. What happened is proof of life after death and there are many more examples of life after death in NDE literature. Some will believe and some won't, but what is, is.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
What makes you think that her head was without blood, etc.? She wasn't really dead.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
It was as I said in an earlier post. She was not dead. The first thing they did was to lower her temperature. If she was at normal body temperature she would have been dead. But her brain had only been stopped.
You are grasping at straws. She was dead. When your brain is stopped you are dead. You don't see or hear with your brain. If you don't want to believe OK don't. What it is, is.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
No, her brain was simply not making brain waves. You are not dead until the cells are dead. And once that happens there is no going back.
By the way, do you realize that the surgery shown in the video was a dramatization?
Just forget it. Too many fake alibis.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Projection. You have a narrative that you want to believe, but you ignore the experts in the field. Why is that?
gnostic
The Lost One
The only ones grasping at straw, is you.
The brain control the functions of almost everything, including motor functions, memory, sensory perception plus consciousness.
Clinical dead, only say your heart stop beating and stop breathing. But it doesn’t mean your brain are dead too, not until the brain cells or neurons are dead too.
In the case that cells in the brain are alive, then the cells are merely inactive, even if the heart not beating.
Of course, cells cannot remain alive and inactive indefinitely. Too long, then the brain cells will begin dying. The heart does need to start again to deliver oxygen to those cells, because the inactive cells cannot remain living.
As long as inactive living neurons can become active again, when the heart start pumping, then it is possible for person to live out his or her days, a normal life.
Of course, because some cells may have died, some people can suffered from some degrees of “brain damage”.
For instances, there can be some losses of memory due to brain damage, or loss of the ability to some body functions, etc. in more severe case of brain damage, the person can become a vegetable, where the patient still have motor functions to the heart and lungs, but cannot regained consciousness.
A person who was only clinically dead for short time, may suffer no brain damage at all. All this depends on the numbers cells that are living and dead.
But all this indicate the person surviving and living after being clinically dead, a physical phenomena with logical and medical explanations, not a spiritual one; it is not evidence for soul, spirit, or the afterlife, as you have claimed.
Here’s a good article refuting NDEs:
In Defense of Sam Harris on Near-Death Experiences - Cup of Nirvana
In Defense of Sam Harris on Near-Death Experiences - Cup of Nirvana