Near Death experiences and the scientific method.

[Mock Turtle]

The problem with comparing agnosticism about magical easter bunnies with Deity is that no one except kids and the mentally deficient believe in easter bunnies whereas literally billions of adult human beings believe in God, many of whom have experienced the Divine subjectively. So long as you are a part of a loony atheistic minority who think the easter bunny God comparison is sound logic, I shakes me head.

Oooh, such hate speech. Is this what your religion teaches? Fallacy as to such not even mentioned - since it might be beyond your understanding

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

There is no more real life example than the one I gave. Naturally it means nothing to you because you have not yet experienced it. No one is forcing you to experience the divine, nor do they care, it is up to you.

You know very well off course that these "experiences" can not be verified and are on the exact same level as the "experiences" of alien abductees, scientologist's "clear" level, etc.

They are indistinguishable from imagination.

So instead of an example, what you gave is yet another claim.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Religious practice is about the transcending of the conceptual mind, not about concepts and definitions.

"When a wise man points at the moon the foolish man examines the finger" ― Confucius The finger represents conceptual explanation of reality, the moon represents actual reality. Or in the purely religious context...the finger represents the conceptual teaching to reaize enlightenment, the moon represents enlightenment.

I keep saying, the real is forever on the other side of the concept of the real. The spiritual can not be apprehended by the ego mind, the thinking mind, that is the wisdom of religious teaching, to point out that concepts are not real Naturally there is this irony that I have to use concepts to teach that one must go beyond concepts, concepts create an illusion of reality, reality itself is not mental.

So really you are claiming that X exists while you can't even define what X is?

Okay.

I can only shrug my shoulders and walk away.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Ok, so what is the extent of your perception? Have you ever experienced prescience? Have you had seen an aura? Have you experience telepathy? Have you experience out of body spiritual bliss?
If you have not, then it means you self identify with the physical reality exclusively and have not evolved further in this life so far.

Demonstrate that any of these things are real in such a way that I can differentiate them from the hallucinations of a psychiatric patient.

 

[SkepticThinker]

The problem with comparing agnosticism about magical easter bunnies with Deity is that no one except kids and the mentally deficient believe in easter bunnies whereas literally billions of adult human beings believe in God, many of whom have experienced the Divine subjectively. So long as you are a part of a loony atheistic minority who think the easter bunny God comparison is sound logic, I shakes me head.

What's the difference though? Just because one group is kids and the other is adults? So what?
They're two groups of human beings who believe in things.
To the adults, there is subjective evidence of God (personal experiences, as you say).
To the children, there is subjective evidence of the Easter Bunny (personal experiences: receiving chocolate, searching for eggs, seeing the Easter Bunny at the mall, etc.).


Millions, billions of people believe in various God(s) and millions more have believed in other Gods throughout history.
Millions of children believe in the Easter Bunny.
The number of people that believe in a thing has no bearing on whether that thing actually exists.

Agnosticism is about knowledge, not beliefs.

 

[SkepticThinker]

You do not know the spiritual realm is unknowable, that is just your present personal belief. Stick to your agnosticism as not believing until you have proof, and one day, God willing, you will have your personal divine experience. Hopefully sooner rather than later.

When someone demonstrates the existence of some spiritual realm with evidence, that is the time to believe. That is the time it will be knowable.
Until then, there is no good reason to believe in such realms and the existence of spiritual realms is not known.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I don't get that anyone, if their wallet went missing in the subway, would assume that a spirit tool it, so what is your point?

But then you'll freely go ahead and attribute other personal experiences you have to spirits.
Why assume spirits are responsible for anything?

 

[SkepticThinker]

You kid yourself, people of religion mind's are much more open to the potential to understand their existence in the context of the bigger picture than narrow minded atheists who will only believe what their five senses allow them to experience. That there is the potential for an extension of perception beyond the five senses is self evident to anyone who open their mind and souls to efficacious religious practices of any religion. That atheists do not avail themselves to this opportunity is their bad karma, their loss, all because they believe only in physical reality, that which they can touch, taste, smell, hear, and see. If you would like to experience the spiritual, then stop believing you are limited to the physical (the 5%), and open to the infinite.

Then you have the same unverifiable subjective experiences with spirits as children do with the Easter Bunny.
If there aren't any ways to test your claims, then you're in the same boat as the kids who believe in the Easter Bunny.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Sure, when one is in a state of out of body awesome bliss due to meditating on God. Everyday, hours upon hours.

Why do you attribute that to spirits?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

You know very well off course that these "experiences" can not be verified and are on the exact same level as the "experiences" of alien abductees, scientologist's "clear" level, etc.

They are indistinguishable from imagination.

So instead of an example, what you gave is yet another claim.

So if a tree falls in a forest and no one hears it, did it actually happen?

Why do atheists have this absurd belief that only things that can be verified by other humans as being real?

Your limited mindset limits your potential for experiencing life beyond the material.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Oooh, such hate speech. Is this what your religion teaches? Fallacy as to such not even mentioned - since it might be beyond your understanding

Religion is meant to help souls grow, they certainly are not meant to limit the mind's perception to the physical reality and stunt its growth.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

So really you are claiming that X exists while you can't even define what X is?

Okay.

I can only shrug my shoulders and walk away.

The real is on the other side of all your minds beliefs, it is the moon, not the finger pointing at it.

Atheism is a conceptual teaching/belief, a metaphorical finger pointing to what, nothing?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Demonstrate that any of these things are real in such a way that I can differentiate them from the hallucinations of a psychiatric patient.

The real is on the other side of your conceptualization, you believe in physical reality, that is the limit of your knowledge. If you are happy to pretend that those who experience the divine are not, that is your reality, but life is larger than that.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Then you have the same unverifiable subjective experiences with spirits as children do with the Easter Bunny.
If there aren't any ways to test your claims, then you're in the same boat as the kids who believe in the Easter Bunny.

So if a tree falls in a forest and no one hears it, did it actually happen?

Why do atheists have this absurd belief that only things that can be verified by other humans as being real?

Your limited mindset limits your potential for experiencing life beyond the material.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

What's the difference though? Just because one group is kids and the other is adults? So what?
They're two groups of human beings who believe in things.
To the adults, there is subjective evidence of God (personal experiences, as you say).
To the children, there is subjective evidence of the Easter Bunny (personal experiences: receiving chocolate, searching for eggs, seeing the Easter Bunny at the mall, etc.).


Millions, billions of people believe in various God(s) and millions more have believed in other Gods throughout history.
Millions of children believe in the Easter Bunny.
The number of people that believe in a thing has no bearing on whether that thing actually exists.

Agnosticism is about knowledge, not beliefs.

Both knowledge and belief are conceptual, the real is on the other side. The only real good that can come out of conceptual knowledge is application, realization. If there is no application, it remains just theory.
Religious practice involves application and the results prove the reality or no of the conceptual theory.
So long as your mind is stuck in the conceptual mode, you are not growing. The real is on the other side of the concepts.

The finger pointing at the moon metaphor, I presume you are familiar with it?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

When someone demonstrates the existence of some spiritual realm with evidence, that is the time to believe. That is the time it will be knowable.
Until then, there is no good reason to believe in such realms and the existence of spiritual realms is not known.

Religious practice is not theoretical, it is application, the results are self evident to the practitioner, they experience growth of perception of the bigger picture of reality, they are not stuck in the conceptual illusionary world of theory.
Atheism is conceptual, reality is on the other side of concepts, religious practice takes you to the other side of the conceptual, and can bring about Self-realization, enlightenment. of the mind and soul.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

But then you'll freely go ahead and attribute other personal experiences you have to spirits.
Why assume spirits are responsible for anything?

This is still a conceptualization in your mind, not in mine. The reality of which I speak is the real, it is on the other side of the conceptual, it is the moon, not the finger pointing to it. Because the atheist mind is stuck in the conceptual mode of perception, you think this is a valid way to understand the greater reality using concepts as proxies for the real they are meant to represent. Nothing could be further from the truth, until you realize that on the other side of the concepts, you are living in maya, illusion, stuck in samsara. It's the moon silly!

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Why do you attribute that to spirits?

I do not attribute it to anything, only you are. You see, you try and conceptualize my experience, that which you have not experienced and then delude yourself into thinking that your conceptualization of my experience is a real representation of reality.

The real is forever on the other side of concepts, if you ever do have a spiritual realization, the worst thing you can do is think about to try and understand it, it takes you further away from the real back into the mental maze of conceptualization where the illusion of the past experience is so hypnotizing, the aspirant of truth gets lost in the maze. Don't examine the finger!

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Why do you attribute that to spirits?

Just to be clear, naturally I am using conceptual language to try and teach you that the real is on the other side of conceptualization. It is an unavoidable irony as there is no other way to convey this teaching that the real is on the other side of conceptual teaching, but I am sure your mind is subtle enough in its perception to see this.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Religion is meant to help souls grow, they certainly are not meant to limit the mind's perception to the physical reality and stunt its growth.

And such is left up to who to decide as to what is growth?