Near Death experiences and the scientific method.

[Ben Dhyan]

And such is left up to who to decide as to what is growth?

Reality does! Evolution favors the astute. Those who have not learnt that reality can never be realized through thought, continue to be fascinated by the finger and ignore that which the finger is pointing to. I trust you are with me wrt the finger pointing to the moon meme. "When a wise man points at the moon the foolish man examines the finger". The finger represents conceptual explanation of reality, the moon represents actual reality. Or in the purely religious context...the finger represents the conceptual teaching to realize enlightenment, the moon represents enlightenment. I keep saying, the real is forever on the other side of the concept of the real.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Reality does! Evolution favors the astute. Those who have not learnt that reality can never be realized through thought, continue to be fascinated by the finger and ignore that which the finger is pointing to. I trust you are with me wrt the finger pointing to the moon meme. "When a wise man points at the moon the foolish man examines the finger". The finger represents conceptual explanation of reality, the moon represents actual reality. Or in the purely religious context...the finger represents the conceptual teaching to realize enlightenment, the moon represents enlightenment. I keep saying, the real is forever on the other side of the concept of the real.

Teaching requires teachers, and so many of us just don't trust the many who promote themselves as such, or are promoted by others, and where so many conflicting concepts are often on offer - as to enlightenment, for example.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Teaching requires teachers, and so many of us just don't trust the many who promote themselves as such, or are promoted by others, and where so many conflicting concepts are often on offer - as to enlightenment, for example.

It is the opposite, did you not understand what I've been explaining..

Reality can never be known through conceptual teaching, except this one, reality exists on the other side of concepts, cease all conceptual reasoning and thought, and reality is realized. No one can teach another how to experience reality, the aspirant must cease all thought about reality to experience reality. Thought prevents the mind from experiencing reality. No promotion is involved, you are free to think that you can truly know reality through conceptual thought, but it will never happen in all eternity. You can learn the theory of reality through conceptual thinking, but never realize it directly as can be experienced through an efficacious religious practice.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

So if a tree falls in a forest and no one hears it, did it actually happen?

You're saying it wrong.

The actual statement is "...and no one hears it, does it then make a sound".
And the answer is "yes" as the production of the soundwaves from the smack to the ground is just physics and independent of any observers.

Having said that: what a random thing to say in reply to the post you are responding to.........................

Why do atheists have this absurd belief that only things that can be verified by other humans as being real?

Atheists don't have that belief at all.
I'm very much convinced that PLENTY of things exist that we can't verify.

The actual question is, why would you accept that any specific thing exists if it can't be verified?
If it can't be verified - not even on principle, how would you know? How could you know. How could you ever rationally accept something which can't be verified in any way shape or form?

Your limited mindset limits your potential for experiencing life beyond the material.

My "limited mindset" of only accepting those things which can be sufficiently supported, makes sure that I won't be buying magic beans or won't be scammed or alike

It protects me from irrational and naive gullibility.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

The real is on the other side of all your minds beliefs, it is the moon, not the finger pointing at it.

Abstract & vague mumbo jumbo won't change the hilarious fact that you are asserting the existence of a thing that you can't even define.

Atheism is a conceptual teaching/belief

No, it's not.

, a metaphorical finger pointing to what, nothing?

It's a single position on a single issue.
It's a rather empty meaningless label which tells you nothing about an individual.

All you know about someone from the label "atheist" is what that person does not believe.

Consider the term "assymmetrical" in context of a geometric shape.
What do you know about said shape if that term is all you get about it?
You know only one thing: that it is not symmetrical.
That's it.

You don't know if it has any corners. You don't know how many corners, if it has corners. You don't know the size. You don't know the color. Or colors. You know virtually NOTHING about it.

All you know, is that it isn't symmetrical. That's it.

Atheism isn't much different.
All you know, is that the person doesn't believe in any gods.
You know nothing else concerning their beliefs.
You can make a few educated guesses at best. But you'ld still have to confirm them individually.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

The real is on the other side of your conceptualization, you believe in physical reality, that is the limit of your knowledge. If you are happy to pretend that those who experience the divine are not, that is your reality, but life is larger than that.

I'll take that as you acknowledging an inability to demonstrate any of those "experiences" in such a way that they can be differentiated from pure hallucination.

 

[Mock Turtle]

It is the opposite, did you not understand what I've been explaining..

Reality can never be known through conceptual teaching, except this one, reality exists on the other side of concepts, cease all conceptual reasoning and thought, and reality is realized. No one can teach another how to experience reality, the aspirant must cease all thought about reality to experience reality. Thought prevents the mind from experiencing reality. No promotion is involved, you are free to think that you can truly know reality through conceptual thought, but it will never happen in all eternity. You can learn the theory of reality through conceptual thinking, but never realize it directly as can be experienced through an efficacious religious practice.

Yes I understood. You might have mentioned why dogs can follow pointed fingers whilst most other animals can't while you were at it.

Where do you get your concepts from without learning (and usually teaching) - since nothing is achieved by solitary thinking? And what is the point of such reality when we actually have to live lives - not just sit around being?

 

[SkepticThinker]

So if a tree falls in a forest and no one hears it, did it actually happen?

Why do atheists have this absurd belief that only things that can be verified by other humans as being real?

Your limited mindset limits your potential for experiencing life beyond the material.

We're talking about the Easter Bunny right now. Let's finish up addressing that before we switch to something else, ok?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Both knowledge and belief are conceptual, the real is on the other side. The only real good that can come out of conceptual knowledge is application, realization. If there is no application, it remains just theory.
Religious practice involves application and the results prove the reality or no of the conceptual theory.
So long as your mind is stuck in the conceptual mode, you are not growing. The real is on the other side of the concepts.

The finger pointing at the moon metaphor, I presume you are familiar with it?

Perhaps you could address what I said in my post.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Religious practice is not theoretical, it is application, the results are self evident to the practitioner, they experience growth of perception of the bigger picture of reality, they are not stuck in the conceptual illusionary world of theory.
Atheism is conceptual, reality is on the other side of concepts, religious practice takes you to the other side of the conceptual, and can bring about Self-realization, enlightenment. of the mind and soul.

Sorry but this is just word salad to me.

 

[SkepticThinker]

This is still a conceptualization in your mind, not in mine. The reality of which I speak is the real, it is on the other side of the conceptual, it is the moon, not the finger pointing to it. Because the atheist mind is stuck in the conceptual mode of perception, you think this is a valid way to understand the greater reality using concepts as proxies for the real they are meant to represent. Nothing could be further from the truth, until you realize that on the other side of the concepts, you are living in maya, illusion, stuck in samsara. It's the moon silly!

More word salad that doesn't seem to address what I said. No answers to my questions. More blaming atheists for your inability to answer questions or to demonstrate the veracity of your claims.


But then you'll freely go ahead and attribute other personal experiences you have to spirits.
Why assume spirits are responsible for anything?

My point and question stand.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I do not attribute it to anything, only you are. You see, you try and conceptualize my experience, that which you have not experienced and then delude yourself into thinking that your conceptualization of my experience is a real representation of reality.

The real is forever on the other side of concepts, if you ever do have a spiritual realization, the worst thing you can do is think about to try and understand it, it takes you further away from the real back into the mental maze of conceptualization where the illusion of the past experience is so hypnotizing, the aspirant of truth gets lost in the maze. Don't examine the finger!

I'm definitely not attributing anything to spirits because I don't believe they exist. Because I've yet to see convincing evidence that exist.
This is getting tiresome.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

You're saying it wrong.

The actual statement is "...and no one hears it, does it then make a sound".
And the answer is "yes" as the production of the soundwaves from the smack to the ground is just physics and independent of any observers.

Having said that: what a random thing to say in reply to the post you are responding to.........................




Atheists don't have that belief at all.
I'm very much convinced that PLENTY of things exist that we can't verify.

The actual question is, why would you accept that any specific thing exists if it can't be verified?
If it can't be verified - not even on principle, how would you know? How could you know. How could you ever rationally accept something which can't be verified in any way shape or form?



My "limited mindset" of only accepting those things which can be sufficiently supported, makes sure that I won't be buying magic beans or won't be scammed or alike

It protects me from irrational and naive gullibility.

I knew you would get the idea, my point was that atheists are like those who would say no, no sound was made when the tree fell because there is no objective evidence of anyone hearing a sound.

I guess that is one way of looking at it, being content with a limited atheistic mindset and only accepting things for which there is objective evidence so that you won't be scammed, thereby assuming that all the people of all times who claim to have had a divine experience are scammers.

I will remind you that the real is on the other side of concepts, if you want to experience what religious practitioners experience, you don't get waiting for objective experience, you have to have the experience yourself. It's the moon silly, not the finger!

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Abstract & vague mumbo jumbo won't change the hilarious fact that you are asserting the existence of a thing that you can't even define.



No, it's not.



It's a single position on a single issue.
It's a rather empty meaningless label which tells you nothing about an individual.

All you know about someone from the label "atheist" is what that person does not believe.

Consider the term "assymmetrical" in context of a geometric shape.
What do you know about said shape if that term is all you get about it?
You know only one thing: that it is not symmetrical.
That's it.

You don't know if it has any corners. You don't know how many corners, if it has corners. You don't know the size. You don't know the color. Or colors. You know virtually NOTHING about it.

All you know, is that it isn't symmetrical. That's it.

Atheism isn't much different.
All you know, is that the person doesn't believe in any gods.
You know nothing else concerning their beliefs.
You can make a few educated guesses at best. But you'ld still have to confirm them individually.

You keep talking about beliefs about reality, while I am talking about experiencing reality.

An experience is real, believing in an experience of the real is not real except as a conceptualization.
The real is on the other side of the concept, until you experience the real directly, you will never know. Religious practice is the way to experience reality directly subjectively, it is not experience by conceptualization.. Atheism can never in all eternity bring about realization of divine reality, because it is based on conceptual belief, while reality itself is on the other side of belief.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I'll take that as you acknowledging an inability to demonstrate any of those "experiences" in such a way that they can be differentiated from pure hallucination.

Quite the contrary, only the direct experience is real, for atheists to want objective proof of someone's subjective experience is impossible. If you can't understand that the real is on the other side of any conceptualization, and that the only evidence there will ever be is when and if the atheist or whoever experiences reality themselves directly, then they continue to have their heads in the sand.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Yes I understood. You might have mentioned why dogs can follow pointed fingers whilst most other animals can't while you were at it.

Where do you get your concepts from without learning (and usually teaching) - since nothing is achieved by solitary thinking? And what is the point of such reality when we actually have to live lives - not just sit around being?

Of course 'monkey see, monkey do' type learning has a role, but without applying the learning, there is no growing. You do not understand, all thinking, group or solitary is conceptual and prevents the real from being experienced. Only when the mind is free from thought will the real be present to the mind and soul. True, we have lives to will and that does require involving ourselves to some extent with conceptual thought, but if that is all we did with our lives, we would end it at the same level as we came into it, a level just above the animal kingdom, not knowing how the life came into being. By experiencing the real through some efficacious religious practice, one gains understanding as to what and who we really are in the bigger picture of universal being,

 

[night912]

So this is what you said in your comment #1296 "She's a pure agnostic and a pure atheist."

So I can understand if there is any difference between the two, pure agnostic and pure atheist, what does the pure atheist night9 say about the possibility of there being a spiritual realm, and what does the pure agnostic night912 say about the possibility of a spiritual realm?

The pure atheist night912 does not have a position about the possibility of a spiritual realm.

The pure agnostic night912 does not know if the spiritual realm is possible or impossible.

 

[night912]

You kid yourself, people of religion mind's are much more open to the potential to understand their existence in the context of the bigger picture than narrow minded atheists who will only believe what their five senses allow them to experience. That there is the potential for an extension of perception beyond the five senses is self evident to anyone who open their mind and souls to efficacious religious practices of any religion. That atheists do not avail themselves to this opportunity is their bad karma, their loss, all because they believe only in physical reality, that which they can touch, taste, smell, hear, and see. If you would like to experience the spiritual, then stop believing you are limited to the physical (the 5%), and open to the infinite.

I can't say this about all religious and nonreligious minded people but from from all the ones that I've engaged with, whether in person or online, it's actually the opposite of what you've said. The religious ones are narrow minded that they think it's impossible for imaginative things to not exist in reality. The nonreligious ones are open to the possibility that imaginative things don't exist in reality.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

We're talking about the Easter Bunny right now. Let's finish up addressing that before we switch to something else, ok?

Atheists equating the possibility of the reality of the easter bunny with reality God is just how their mind works, but to my way of life it is not only a waste of precious life time, it involves the mind's conceptualization of a nonsensical entity.

So what I will try to do going forward is to focus on reality and to discuss how to realize it, not conceptualize about it!

How does one experience reality itself firsthand, not by drawing on some belief tradition, postulating, speculating, believing, etc.. Now since it not possible to convey any idea to another without conceptualizing, let us keep the conceptualizing confined to conveying the essence of how one can realize reality, not know it, or about it conceptually, but to be in reality as a non-dual experience.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Perhaps you could address what I said in my post.

See my last post, we can continue as we have with endless debate, or focus on the essence of both theism and atheism, what is reality?

Are you familiar with Plato's shadows of the cave wall reality. It is not unlike the finger point to the moon in its conclusion, that common mankind's sense of reality is an indirect one, instead of living in the direct light of reality, it is in the conceptual mind's interpretation of reality.

So how do we get to live in the light that casts the shadows on the cave wall, instead of believing that the shadows we see (concepts we use to represent the real) is reality.