Near Death Experiences Disolve All Religions

[thau]

I'm sorry, but there is nothing obvious about either of those claims. Regardless of how true any account of an NDE is, it remains second-hand information at best to anyone else but the person experiencing it. In most cases (like myself) it would be third, fourth, fifth or countless times removed from the original source. That is not what I call OBVIOUS, nor is it what most people would call OBVIOUS.

You need not be sorry at all. But we are on opposite ends of this debate. NDEs alone have convinced me of the afterlife and of a G-d very close to the one I know exists.

Just the recent NDE account from the agnostic Harvard neurosurgeon, Dr. Eben Alexander, who died and went to heaven and came back to life is enough for me.

 

[Sir Doom]

You need not be sorry at all. But we are on opposite ends of this debate. NDEs alone have convinced me of the afterlife and of a G-d very close to the one I know exists.

Just the recent NDE account from the agnostic Harvard neurosurgeon, Dr. Eben Alexander, who died and went to heaven and came back to life is enough for me.

I wouldn't dispute that at all. You have been convinced. That doesn't make it obvious. I'm convinced there are teeny little bits of matter called atoms. That doesn't make their existence obvious. I cannot EVER experience Dr. Eben Alexander's experience. If I could, perhaps it would be obvious to me. But I can't. Therefore, I am bound to think and examine and weigh options and conclude. Not simply observe and record, which is what obvious means to me.

Let me be clear. I believe in God and an afterlife, as well. But the far-removed account of someone I've never met being relayed to me by another person I've never met on a forum is hardly what I would call obvious evidence for such things.

 

[thau]

Let me be clear. I believe in God and an afterlife, as well. But the far-removed account of someone I've never met being relayed to me by another person I've never met on a forum is hardly what I would call obvious evidence for such things.

Well what then makes it obvious to you, since you say you believe in God and the afterlife?

I doubt any sincere searcher of the truth would settle for one poster telling about another person’s personal experience either. But when other folks remain steadfast unbelievers by picking off accounts one at a time as they are presented, then I might call their position or tactic disingenuous. Because it is impossible to present all of the evidence and all of the reasons why many believers are convinced that Jesus is the Messiah and Christianity is truest of faiths by writing about it here or in another forum. There are untold thousands of pieces of information and reasons to come up with what one can call the truth and a sound verdict. Dr. Eban Alexander is merely the latest. His article in Newsweek is very compelling on its own, IMO. http://nhne-pulse.org/newsweek-cover-story-dr-eben-alexanders-nde/

There are many others. Those where they come back speak of things that transpired where they could never know if they were unconscious or where certain things occurred in adjacent room.

 

[Sir Doom]

Well what then makes it obvious to you, since you say you believe in God and the afterlife?

Nothing makes it obvious. It isn't obvious at all. I've spent decades building what I believe, and I'm not finished. There is nothing obvious about it. Hence, the fundamental disagreement with your post that I have. I may be smug and arrogant, but I am not so smug and arrogant as to assume that everything I've ever come to believe is simply obvious by virtue of my belief in it. I have worked and slaved to build my beliefs. They didn't just fall out of the sky.

I doubt any sincere searcher of the truth would settle for one poster telling about another person’s personal experience either. But when other folks remain steadfast unbelievers by picking off accounts one at a time as they are presented, then I might call their position or tactic disingenuous.

In what strange universe do you expect anything else? They ask for reason, you provide, they refute and you do what? Throw your hands in the air? They are asking too much? How dare they expect their arguments to hold as much weight as your assertions? Get over yourself. If you cannot argue the point, then stop trying to assert it. Its as simple (and obvious) as that.

Because it is impossible to present all of the evidence and all of the reasons why many believers are convinced that Jesus is the Messiah and Christianity is truest of faiths by writing about it here or in another forum. There are untold thousands of pieces of information and reasons to come up with what one can call the truth and a sound verdict. Dr. Eban Alexander is merely the latest. His article in Newsweek is very compelling on its own, IMO.

http://nhne-pulse.org/newsweek-cover-story-dr-eben-alexanders-nde/ There are many others. Those where they come back speak of things that transpired where they could never know if they were unconscious or where certain things occurred in adjacent room.

Absolutely wrong. It is NOT impossible. If you cannot present all of the reasons that you believe than any reason you cannot present is NOT A REASON AT ALL. What you are talking about is simply laziness. Either you have the courage of your convictions or you do not. If you do not... then please, reevaluate your convictions. You cannot at once say that it is obvious and then talk about how impossible it is to demonstrate. That's just ridiculous. Those two ideas are polar opposites.

 

[thau]

Nothing makes it obvious. It isn't obvious at all. I've spent decades building what I believe, and I'm not finished. There is nothing obvious about it. Hence, the fundamental disagreement with your post that I have. I may be smug and arrogant, but I am not so smug and arrogant as to assume that everything I've ever come to believe is simply obvious by virtue of my belief in it. I have worked and slaved to build my beliefs. They didn't just fall out of the sky.

Well I am sincerely impressed. But do not hold for a second the idea that my efforts have not equaled yours but with very different results.

In what strange universe do you expect anything else? They ask for reason, you provide, they refute and you do what? Throw your hands in the air? They are asking too much? How dare they expect their arguments to hold as much weight as your assertions? Get over yourself. If you cannot argue the point, then stop trying to assert it. Its as simple (and obvious) as that.

No, I do not think it is as obvious as that. It is like an interview I once watched when some secular journalist was interviewing Cardinal Ratizinger before he became pope. They asked something close to “what evidence is there for God?” Cardinal Ratzinger replied (paraphrase) wryly “there are thousands of books that address that question and hundreds of saints before me, and now you expect an answer in a one minute answer?”

The preponderance of evidence spans across many disciplines, many historical accounts, many miracles and many volumes. Have you refuted all that? Has anyone ever been able to explain away weeping statues or the miracle at Fatima with even the slightest amount of credibility? No. But then what? Many accounts and many reasons are set aside or forgotten and all that matters is the latest poster’s offering. As though it stands on its own.

No, for me, it is like a child trying putting his finger in one hole in the dike only to have several others spring up he must now tend to.

Absolutely wrong. It is NOT impossible. If you cannot present all of the reasons that you believe than any reason you cannot present is NOT A REASON AT ALL. What you are talking about is simply laziness. Either you have the courage of your convictions or you do not. If you do not... then please, reevaluate your convictions. You cannot at once say that it is obvious and then talk about how impossible it is to demonstrate. That's just ridiculous. Those two ideas are polar opposites.

What I have to say on this subject would be 10 times too long for a post and would also be rejected by the moderators because it has too many quotes from other authors. So I have presented one at a time for years, not necessarily on this forum. But you are you are apparently telling me that you have already taken the task upon yourself to see examine all that is out there? And reasoned it all away? If so, then you have accomplished a monumental task, imo, and I am not sure I can assist at that point? You have already decided there is no empirical evidence available, and I believe you.

 

[paradigm13]

Given that NDEs often result in contradictory descriptions of the afterlife, I am of the opinion that they are likely nothing more than hallucinations brought on by the unusual brain states that happen close to death.

I would agree with you if I hadn't studied NDE's and the people who've maybe read a few will say that same thing.

If you watch/read enough you'll see the obvious pattern they are not random at all. Other than being greeted by who they expect as they've believed in their whole lives.


They are visited by deceased relatives.

They are told it's either not their time, or that they have something they have to accomplish first.

A life review in which there isn't any biblical like judgement other than you watch your own life in review and feel your actions good or bad through the eyes and feelings of the people you've effected.

They have an undeniable feeling that they are "home"

If they were a hallucination they would be more like random spiritual dreams don't you think? It really makes so sense that such a high percentage would be told in their "hallucination" that they can't stay and have to go back.

 

[paradigm13]

Here is some interesting percentages out of 50 NDE's on this website. Me personally though I follow NDE's I'm more inclined to put more credence into video interviews as they put their face to their story. Anyone can write up a story at one of these sites and not have to answer for it so I do have some skepticism as well.

If I were to go through 50 videos I know the percentages are much different.

From a near death site in which I can't post links to.

Common Elements of NDE's

NDE and Afterlife Statistics (50 NDEs) Overwhelming love 69% Mental telepathy 65% Life review 62% God 56% Tremendous ecstasy 56% Unlimited knowledge 46% Afterlife levels 46% Told not ready 46% Shown the future 44% Tunnel 42% Jesus 37% Forgotten knowledge 31% Fear 27% Homecoming 21% Told of past lives 21% Hell 19% City of light 17% Temple of Knowledge 13% Spirits among the living 10% Suicide 6% Devil 0%

 

[Sir Doom]

Well I am sincerely impressed. But do not hold for a second the idea that my efforts have not equaled yours but with very different results.

I was bragging to a certain extent, but the point was that IT WAS NOT OBVIOUS. If you had to endure a similar experience, then you should know that.

No, I do not think it is as obvious as that. It is like an interview I once watched when some secular journalist was interviewing Cardinal Ratizinger before he became pope. They asked something close to “what evidence is there for God?” Cardinal Ratzinger replied (paraphrase) wryly “there are thousands of books that address that question and hundreds of saints before me, and now you expect an answer in a one minute answer?”

The preponderance of evidence spans across many disciplines, many historical accounts, many miracles and many volumes. Have you refuted all that? Has anyone ever been able to explain away weeping statues or the miracle at Fatima with even the slightest amount of credibility? No. But then what? Many accounts and many reasons are set aside or forgotten and all that matters is the latest poster’s offering. As though it stands on its own.

No, for me, it is like a child trying putting his finger in one hole in the dike only to have several others spring up he must now tend to.

This is a demonstration of the very point I'm making. IT IS NOT OBVIOUS.

What I have to say on this subject would be 10 times too long for a post and would also be rejected by the moderators because it has too many quotes from other authors. So I have presented one at a time for years, not necessarily on this forum. But you are you are apparently telling me that you have already taken the task upon yourself to see examine all that is out there? And reasoned it all away? If so, then you have accomplished a monumental task, imo, and I am not sure I can assist at that point? You have already decided there is no empirical evidence available, and I believe you.

Yes. I have every intention of learning everything I am capable of learning. Or was that not what you meant?

 

[Parsimony]

I would agree with you if I hadn't studied NDE's and the people who've maybe read a few will say that same thing.

If you watch/read enough you'll see the obvious pattern they are not random at all. Other than being greeted by who they expect as they've believed in their whole lives.


They are visited by deceased relatives.

They are told it's either not their time, or that they have something they have to accomplish first.

A life review in which there isn't any biblical like judgement other than you watch your own life in review and feel your actions good or bad through the eyes and feelings of the people you've effected.

They have an undeniable feeling that they are "home"

If they were a hallucination they would be more like random spiritual dreams don't you think?

Hallucinations and dreams can follow patterns to some extent. I tend to have recurring themes in my dreams, for example. Indeed, what I believe will happen in a dream often comes to transpire in that dream as well. If one believes they are dead, this expectation may generate similar results (they see what they, or perhaps their subconscious, believe they should see). If NDEs are a trick of the mind, it is not necessary to suggest that they must be completely random.

It really makes so sense that such a high percentage would be told in their "hallucination" that they can't stay and have to go back.

Anyone who was told that they were coming back and then died wouldn't be able to report it.

 

[JayJayDee]

So I've read/watched more Near Death Experience accounts than I can shake a stick at and what I've found is...

The higher percentage of accounts do not see jesus, buddha, or any other God's from religions. They see a being of light that's usually faceless and other spirit's usually deceased family members or other familiar souls.


Literally NO mention of the bible or any other religious scriptures in NDE's if there is It has to be 1%.


It means that man made scripters are not the focus of life the only main key message from NDE's is compassion for each other "love" that is all.

There is a whole database of these video on youtube under ndeaccounts I encourage you to study them!


How it seems to work is christians only watch the NDE's that have something to do with jesus, any NDE's without jesus are probably tricks of Satan

The new age type accept most of them but usually dismiss any with Jesus in them.

Love to hear your thoughts on where your religions fit into NDE's

Because I have no belief in life after death, (the Bible does not support the teaching of an immortal part of man that departs the body at death) I am not surprised that these experiences transcend various religions without implicating any specific ones.

When you say "They see a being of light that's usually faceless and other spirit's usually deceased family members or other familiar souls", I am reminded of the Bible's description of satan"....Satan himself keeps disguising himself as an angel of light.  It is therefore nothing extraordinary if his ministers also keep disguising themselves as ministers of righteousness. But their end will be according to their works." (2 Cor 11:14, 15)

According to the Bible, there are two kinds of spirits in existence....good and bad....and none of them are the spirits of dead people. The spirit realm is inhabited angels and the rebel ones are out to deceive.
Satan has "ministers" both human and spirit, who carry out his deceptions, some knowingly, some unwittingly, having fallen for a convincing deception. (2 Thess 2:9-12)

The first lie told in human history, was in Eden with the devil telling Eve that she would not die if she disobeyed God's command. God said she would...so who lied?

Adam was told that he would die....not that he would go on living in another form, in another place (no heaven or hell)....satan was the one who said they wouldn't die. By masquerading as the dead, his minions can perpetuate his first lie.

NDE's are nothing more than a ruse. Demons can masquerade as the dead because they have been around for millenniums and know things about people that only close family members would know. Consulting the spirit world was forbidden to God's people for this reason. (Deut 18:19-12) It was a very serious offense, "detestable" to God.

Saul's illegally consulting a spirit medium at Endor to supposedly bring up the dead prophet Samuel likewise produced a masquerading spirit who was only seen and heard by the medium. If God's living prophets would not speak to Saul, then the dead Samuel would not have disobediently done so either. (1 Sam 28:4-19)

For some perhaps NDE's are a flood of hallucinogens in a near death brain, struggling to keep a grip on life. For others, the devil can take advantage of a weakened state to delude those who are physically very ill. Either way, they do not prove that there is life after death. (Eccl 9:5, 6, 10)

Life in a new world is promised by means of a resurrection; that is a raising back to life in the flesh on earth for the majority. The dead are all sleeping peacefully in their graves awaiting Christ's call. (John 5:28, 29)

 

[Windwalker]

I would think someone who has experienced an NDE would interpret it in the context of whatever spiritual beliefs they already held.

This is true. It's true of any experience we have in life. We always interpret it within our current framework of reality we are operating within as the norm. But what distinguishes NDE as an experience is that it is far beyond the norm, so it takes on archetypal symbols and forms as the face of what was experienced. This is why typically in state-experiences like these, they will often take on those symbols on this level of the culture which uses them. It's less likely a Christian will see a thousand armed Bodhisattva than they will Jesus or Mary or an angel.

But here's the salient point, they are in fact experiencing something real. The face of it is not consistent, but then neither is the face or interpretation of what we call 'normal' reality. Each person is unique and interprets these things through typical conventional structures, but they are not, nor ever 100% identical. What we call "reality" is really nothing more than a shared common language where we are at best close in approximation to each other in how we interpret these things.

Though NDEs will vary in interpretation, the fact remains they all are experiencing something life-altering. The experience is so powerful it goes beyond the experiences of mere hallucinations, which some without any experience on these level attempt to label them out of convenience. They are not hallucinations. But they also do not prove that what is experienced within them are actual, literal objects in the universe the way we might experience a dog or a cat or another person. They are very real, but the mind fills in the blank with something that both conveys what it sees 'beyond' them, while allowing the mind to reach towards it from where it is at presently. This is how symbols function.

It would be interesting to know how many NDE's were conversion events. I know one woman who had been agnostic and experienced an NDE. She subsequently converted to Christianity and attributed the NDE for her change of heart, although she never claimed to have seen Jesus. She converted with little investigation into other faiths, so far as I could tell. She had been raised in a Christian home.

Sounds similar to myself. I sought out religion following my own experience in order to provide some context of understanding it for myself, in order to explore what had opened to me, to unite with That again as it went deeper into myself than anything we can normally fathom. And no, it was not a hallucination. Those operate in a very different way, and are notably different experiences. They are far more from the primal subconscious, rather than archetypal or transpersonal in nature.

I subsequently pursued the Christian faith in order to know "God", which was how I experienced that with white light, life-review, infinite mind and presence, etc. (it's very personal so I won't go beyond a brief description here). What I found over time as I pursued knowledge within it is that the interpretation of these symbols within the religion by those who had no direct experience of "God" on this level, were expressions of their speculations and mental models of God based upon whatever their normal personal and cultural experiences they had were. A God who sent people who didn't believe like them to hell, for instance, had zero referent in my experience. In fact it completely violated the nature of what my direct experience was on the core level, not just simply a different 'face' of the same sort of experience as you might expect from someone of a different culture.

The point is, it does not prove ones particular religion's symbols are actual, literal persons or beings as described by their religion. It proves that we all have an experience of the same thing that is well-beyond the "norm", one that is not a hallucination, but described as "real reality" by those who experience it. How the mind subsequently interprets the direct experience, is just that. How the mind interprets it. How literal, or abstract that will be is entirely based on where someone is at developmentally. Someone with no experience themselves speculating about it from the outside, say as a so-called skeptic, or as someone who wants to make these prove their particular religion is true, are doing so without the benefit of actual experience.

 

[Knight of Albion]

I would agree with you if I hadn't studied NDE's and the people who've maybe read a few will say that same thing.

If you watch/read enough you'll see the obvious pattern they are not random at all. Other than being greeted by who they expect as they've believed in their whole lives.


They are visited by deceased relatives.

They are told it's either not their time, or that they have something they have to accomplish first.

A life review in which there isn't any biblical like judgement other than you watch your own life in review and feel your actions good or bad through the eyes and feelings of the people you've effected.

They have an undeniable feeling that they are "home"

If they were a hallucination they would be more like random spiritual dreams don't you think? It really makes so sense that such a high percentage would be told in their "hallucination" that they can't stay and have to go back.

All very good points.

In some of the children NDEs the child reports meeting a deceased relative - grandparent they'd never met before or stillborn/deceased sibling they didn't know they had.

And as for the hallucination/fantasy theory, never heard of a NDE that involved naked women (or men)/sex, cars, money, material possessions and so forth, the things lets be honest that are foremost in most people's minds most of the time.

Another common theme in NDEs is 'universiality' - people of all faiths and none, even pet dogs, cats, horses, the works! The very antithesis of Orthodoxy's 'our way is the only way' stance. And the reason Orthodoxy shies away from acknowledging NDEs.

 

[Thief]

So I've read/watched more Near Death Experience accounts than I can shake a stick at and what I've found is...

The higher percentage of accounts do not see jesus, buddha, or any other God's from religions. They see a being of light that's usually faceless and other spirit's usually deceased family members or other familiar souls.


Literally NO mention of the bible or any other religious scriptures in NDE's if there is It has to be 1%.


It means that man made scripters are not the focus of life the only main key message from NDE's is compassion for each other "love" that is all.

There is a whole database of these video on youtube under ndeaccounts I encourage you to study them!


How it seems to work is christians only watch the NDE's that have something to do with jesus, any NDE's without jesus are probably tricks of Satan

The new age type accept most of them but usually dismiss any with Jesus in them.

Love to hear your thoughts on where your religions fit into NDE's

Been living on 'borrowed time' for more than forty years.

Was growing up catholic and even applied at a seminary.

I've had an 'accident'.

Ended up a rogue theologian.
I have no religion, congregation, list of prayers, ritual, or dogma.

Still believe in God.
and the Carpenter remains my Inspiration.
I have made a stainless steel ring with a cross on it.

 

[arcanum]

Why are we so certain the afterlife must be uniform?

I think it was Swedenborg who pretty much said that one's particular state of being determines one's afterlife. I've heard someone describe it like this: Let's take for example a dark seedy bar, nobody forces anyone to stay there, people are there because they prefer it there and it suits their temperament. People can leave at anytime, but they prefer to inhabit such regions because of who they are, Swedenborg said the same is true of the afterlife. An interesting point to consider.

 

[Thief]

I think it was Swedenborg who pretty much said that one's particular state of being determines one's afterlife. I've heard someone describe it like this: Let's take for example a dark seedy bar, nobody forces anyone to stay there, people are there because they prefer it there and it suits their temperament. People can leave at anytime, but they prefer to inhabit such regions because of who they are, Swedenborg said the same is true of the afterlife. An interesting point to consider.

And we end up with others like ourselves.....yep.
How else to be happy?...how else to be fair?

Heaven for some....hell for others.

 

[arcanum]

And we end up with others like ourselves.....yep.
How else to be happy?...how else to be fair?

Heaven for some....hell for others.

Perhaps like life itself, the afterlife will also be a very subjective experience. I kind of like that idea actually, but like everything else, that doesn't necessarily make it true.

 

[Thief]

Perhaps like life itself, the afterlife will also be a very subjective experience. I kind of like that idea actually, but like everything else, that doesn't necessarily make it true.

Show me a more likely scenario.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I would agree with you if I hadn't studied NDE's and the people who've maybe read a few will say that same thing.

If you watch/read enough you'll see the obvious pattern they are not random at all. Other than being greeted by who they expect as they've believed in their whole lives.


They are visited by deceased relatives.

They are told it's either not their time, or that they have something they have to accomplish first.

A life review in which there isn't any biblical like judgement other than you watch your own life in review and feel your actions good or bad through the eyes and feelings of the people you've effected.

They have an undeniable feeling that they are "home"

If they were a hallucination they would be more like random spiritual dreams don't you think? It really makes so sense that such a high percentage would be told in their "hallucination" that they can't stay and have to go back.

There is something called self introspection. Who knows yourself and your experiences better than the person who experiences them? Seeing loved ones, self review of oneself. All this is a reflection. Nothing substantial.

 

[Runewolf1973]

Life is a continuum.

When your 'time' comes and you pass over, all those you have loved and who loved you (who have passed over) will be there to greet you. Irrespective of what religion they did or did not subscribe to.
Even your pets will be there.

NDEs fatally compromise Orthodoxy and it's 'exclusivity' mindset.

Say it once, say it a thousand times, it's not what religion you follow, it's how you live your life that is the all-important thing.

The message of all the Masters and teachers of the Light has been the same - that of Love. And it's only through love, in its various expressions - compassion, mercy, forgiveness, Service - that we spiritually evolve and ascend the spheres of Light.

I agree with this, however, you will likely not be greeted by all your loved ones, though you may be greeted by a few. It just depends...sometimes they cross over quickly, and sometimes they stick around. Pets have a tendency of sticking around quite often.

BTW, if it sounds like I am so sure of this, it is because I am...I know someone who talks to dead people.



---

 

[Muffled]

Given that NDEs often result in contradictory descriptions of the afterlife, I am of the opinion that they are likely nothing more than hallucinations brought on by the unusual brain states that happen close to death.

A hallucination can't observe what is happening in the room as some NDE's have reported.