Near Death experiences to atheist

[outhouse]

They also did a new test called the "god helmet"

Using electromagnetic sensors all over the helmet they could focus different magnetic forces to certain parts of the brain, this induced all of these sensations and god like experiences in users.

 

[Devillif311]

Ok so with the evidence that you guys have claimed then i will have to stick with agnosticism because this is not even close to powerful evidence of souls/spirits

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Ok so with the evidence that you guys have claimed then i will have to stick with agnosticism because this is not even close to powerful evidence of souls/spirits

Were you looking for atheists to provide evidence of souls and spirits?

 

[Devillif311]

I was looking at atheist to disprove spirits/souls using this "evidence" and they were successful. Sorry if I sounded like i meant the other way lol

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I was looking at atheist to disprove spirits/souls using this evidence and they were successful.

Ah, understood.

 

[George-ananda]

Ok so with the evidence that you guys have claimed then i will have to stick with agnosticism because this is not even close to powerful evidence of souls/spirits

Devillif311, your logic with this thread (Near Death experiences to atheist) escapes me.

If you wanted input to know what to believe wouldn't you want to hear both sides?


Whatever your purpose was with this thread, I can't help but throw in my two cents that the atheist explanation seems woefully poor and desperate. They're telling you that people with serious brain trauma and show no brain activity can have these amazingly similar experiences that are very coherent and seem so real that these people believe them to be more real than their waking reality.

Wouldn't it be expected that if the atheist's view of the brain and consciousness were correct these people would experience nothing, and if anything, a very random weird firing of the brain that would not all be similar person to person. And that these people when normal consciousness is regained would not be convinced in a life-changing way that they had real experiences.

And I won't go into detail of people's stories of having knowledge of real-world events during their trauma that they couldn't have known through normal means.

Anyway Devillif311, you may not want to come to such a quick judgement

 

[Penumbra]

Whatever your purpose was with this thread, I can't help but throw in my two cents that the atheist explanation seems woefully poor and desperate.

To me it's just boring. I hear stories with claims that are far out of proportion of the evidence.

They're telling you that people with serious brain trauma and show no brain activity

Their brain was still alive. The heart stops, brain activity becomes erratic and then eventually winds down, and if the cells in the brain die then that's it. The people that came back didn't have their brains die- they still had a living brain to come back from.

Can you demonstrate that their experience occurred during the brief time when they had no brain activity, rather than at any point throughout the rest of the multi-stage process of death?

can have these amazingly similar experiences that are very coherent and seem so real that these people believe them to be more real than their waking reality.

Most of the ones I've heard aren't particularly coherent.

Wouldn't it be expected that if the atheist's view of the brain and consciousness were correct these people would experience nothing, and if anything, a very random weird firing of the brain that would not all be similar person to person. And that these people when normal consciousness is regained would not be convinced in a life-changing way that they had real experiences.

a) Where do you get the idea that they would experience nothing? When people sleep, they dream. When people's brain chemistry is altered, their perception of reality can change dramatically. When the body is dying, all sorts of things are happening to the brain. Lack of oxygen, releasing of chemicals, and so forth.

b) Many of the experiences are different- meeting different deities or no deities, going to hell and seeing eternal damnation for people that don't believe in Jesus or being told there is no hell and no eternal damnation, seeing relatives or not seeing relatives, having a past life review or no past life review, floating on butterlies and meeting an unborn sister or not, getting a life review from nonjudgmental beings dressed in light or getting attacked by demons in darkness, and more.

c) When my father's heart stopped in a hospital he said he didn't experience anything. To him, he just slipped away into subjective nonexistence and then was surprised to be woken up. He still believed in an afterlife anyway until the day he eventually did die, but in that chance for a NDE he didn't experience it.

And I won't go into detail of people's stories of having knowledge of real-world events during their trauma that they couldn't have known through normal means.

I've looked into those. The claims really haven't been that interesting to me- people that were dying but aware of certain things. I remember one where she said she noticed things during the time when the blood was drained from her brain but looking over the timeline there wasn't any reason to believe it happened at that time compared to any other time.

 

[ArtieE]

Simple question: How can you explain the numerous reports of people that can see outside of their body when they die and come back to life? (To atheist)

I don't see how those are connected. I have read about people having NDE's where no gods were involved at all.

 

[George-ananda]

To me it's just boring. I hear stories with claims that are far out of proportion of the evidence.

To me it’s quite interesting. I think there is plenty of evidence to support the idea that something is happening that doesn’t fit the materialist/physicalist’s view of the world.

Their brain was still alive.

Certainly if their brain was physically ‘dead’ they could never physically tells us about any experiences ever again. So all we can ever talk about is a time of no brain activity.

The heart stops, brain activity becomes erratic and then eventually winds down, and if the cells in the brain die then that's it. The people that came back didn't have their brains die- they still had a living brain to come back from.

Can you demonstrate that their experience occurred during the brief time when they had no brain activity, rather than at any point throughout the rest of the multi-stage process of death?

One argument for there being no brain activity during the experience is their viewing of resuscitation scenes and other scenes from an outside the body perspective during the time of no brain activity.

Most of the ones I've heard aren't particularly coherent.

They are way more coherent than my sleeping dreams and when I wake up fully from sleep I know they were dreams not reality.

a) Where do you get the idea that they would experience nothing? When people sleep, they dream. When people's brain chemistry is altered, their perception of reality can change dramatically. When the body is dying, all sorts of things are happening to the brain. Lack of oxygen, releasing of chemicals, and so forth.

During times of no brain activity or shutting down I would not expect exceptionally vivid coherent perceptions that the experiencer insists are real.

b) Many of the experiences are different- meeting different deities or no deities, going to hell and seeing eternal damnation for people that don't believe in Jesus or being told there is no hell and no eternal damnation, seeing relatives or not seeing relatives, having a past life review or no past life review, floating on butterlies and meeting an unborn sister or not, getting a life review from nonjudgmental beings dressed in light or getting attacked by demons in darkness, and more.

The researchers have put together a core experience containing the most commonly reported aspects. They feel that there is enough similarities in the experiences that a core experience exists. Not everyone experiences every event in the core and some have uncommonly experienced events.

c) When my father's heart stopped in a hospital he said he didn't experience anything. To him, he just slipped away into subjective nonexistence and then was surprised to be woken up. He still believed in an afterlife anyway until the day he eventually did die, but in that chance for a NDE he didn't experience it.

This is common. Sufficient trauma is required for separation of the etheric/astral body from the physical body. This can vary in each individual and each trauma event.

I've looked into those. The claims really haven't been that interesting to me- people that were dying but aware of certain things. I remember one where she said she noticed things during the time when the blood was drained from her brain but looking over the timeline there wasn't any reason to believe it happened at that time compared to any other time.

It sounds like you’re saying in that particular case both hypotheses would be possible.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

To me it’s quite interesting. I think there is plenty of evidence to support the idea that something is happening that doesn’t fit the materialist/physicalist’s view of the world.

People often find bad evidence convincing when they need to validate a fictional reality.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Simple question: How can you explain the numerous reports of people that can see outside of their body when they die and come back to life? (To atheist)

Same reason it happens to me while I'm sleeping, I suppose. It's a dream.

 

[fantome profane]

One argument for there being no brain activity during the experience is their viewing of resuscitation scenes and other scenes from an outside the body perspective during the time of no brain activity.

ok, I would certainly find that persuasive. But only if it could be clearly demonstrated that it was a real observation and it really did occur during a period when the brain was not functioning at all. The observation would have to be something specific and unique enough that the person could have not just imagined or guessed at. It would have to be clearly established that the person had no other way of learning about the events. And it would have to be clearly established that the brain was actually dead at the time. In simple terms it would have to be established that there was no possible natural explanation before I would consider a spiritual one. You might think this is incredibly biased on my part, and if so you would be correct.

 

[George-ananda]

People often find bad evidence convincing when they need to validate a fictional reality.

Kilgore, I know I've been right once in my life per Mr. Trout

See Post #17 on thread 'Just-borns and little children and religious beliefs'

We might be showing signs of merging into one person!

 

[George-ananda]

ok, I would certainly find that persuasive. But only if it could be clearly demonstrated that it was a real observation and it really did occur during a period when the brain was not functioning at all. The observation would have to be something specific and unique enough that the person could have not just imagined or guessed at. It would have to be clearly established that the person had no other way of learning about the events. And it would have to be clearly established that the brain was actually dead at the time. In simple terms it would have to be established that there was no possible natural explanation before I would consider a spiritual one. You might think this is incredibly biased on my part, and if so you would be correct.

Here's a case that meets your (as you put it ) 'incredibly biased' standards.

NDE for Fantome

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I can dismiss all near death experiences with a single word:

Near.

Nobody has ever actually died and come back. Once the brain chemistry is gone, it's gone. All near death experiences that I am aware of come from people who were merely in an unconscious or semi-conscious state. All you really have to do is compare the number of people who reach a state which could be considered "near death" but don't have an experience with the number of supposed near death experiences to see it's not sufficient evidence of anything other than the fact that the human brain is capable of crazy things.

 

[George-ananda]

I can dismiss all near death experiences with a single word:

Near.

Nobody has ever actually died and come back. Once the brain chemistry is gone, it's gone.

Many are of the position that the real 'Self' was never the brain to begin with. And the analogy is that 'death' is just the real 'Self' dropping its outermost cloak.

 

[1137]

Many are of the position that the real 'Self' was never the brain to begin with. And the analogy is that 'death' is just the real 'Self' dropping its outermost cloak.

So what? We're not dealing with what people desperately want to be true but what is true. Science couldn't care less what you believe.

 

[George-ananda]

So what? We're not dealing with what people desperately want to be true but what is true. Science couldn't care less what you believe.

And the Universe couldn't care less what 'Science' believes.

 

[1137]

And the Universe couldn't care less what 'Science' believes.

I see, you don't actually understand how science works do you.

 

[George-ananda]

Same reason it happens to me while I'm sleeping, I suppose. It's a dream.

I have never had a dream where I was looking down on my sleeping body. Why do near death people so frequently report this is the question.