Argentbear
Well-Known Member
considering one has to demonstrate that one can drive safely and competently it does make applicants better drivers
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Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals rules that voter registration must have proof of citizenship
- Thread starter Shaul
- Start date
Argentbear
Well-Known Member
And the ruling makes the driver's licenses of about 80% of the people of Arizona invalid for identification to vote. As it stands millions have to reapply for new driver's licenses to vote in November
Magic Man
Reaper of Conversation
1) Driving is not a right.
2) Getting a driver's license does make people better drivers on average. Having to learn how to drive and demonstrate proficiency makes a big difference.
3) Driver's licenses cost time and money. Voting should not come with those requirements.
Magic Man
Reaper of Conversation
I'm sure you don't care. Anyone advocating for this doesn't care. Because it doesn't affect you. For some people the time and effort needed to go get an ID is asking a lot. Some work a lot and have trouble finding the time to do it. Some have trouble with transportation. There are a lot of aspects you and I don't think about because for us something like this is a minor annoyance, rather than a big deal.
As I said above, a driver's license is different. It's for a different purpose and isn't comparable to this.
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Hey, I was working. I didn't have transportation issues but I was working and had to work around that. And it was actually a pretty big deal because of my work schedule and having to come back over and over again.
Magic Man
Reaper of Conversation
Good, then you know why we shouldn't require something like that to vote. Since there's no actual problem it would solve, there's no reason to make people go through all that, especially since some people aren't even in as good a position as you were.
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
As I said, I had to come back over and over again, and I was working, so I had to take time off (unpaid, I might add).
Magic Man
Reaper of Conversation
Right, so you understand why we shouldn't require people to do that unnecessarily, especially for something as important as voting and especially since others aren't even in as good a position as yours (or mine).
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Nope, sorry, don't understand it. I don't understand why I should be so inconvenienced and yet they shouldn't.
Tamino
Active Member
I agree. My home has automated voter registration. People are required to register their home address with the city government anyway, so we just send them the invitation to vote whenever an election occurs.
And I would support making it mandatory. People who do not want to vote for any of the candidates can still hand in an empty or invalid ballot.
Democracy can only work when people actually participate.
Alien826
No religious beliefs
Interesting. I have lived in the USA for 35 years as a "Resident Alien" (green card). I previously lived here for 18 months on a work visa, and it was at that time that I got a drivers license (by showing my British license) and a Social Security number (by applying). The green card took a lot of paperwork and other stuff to get, despite being married to a US citizen. Since then I have very rarely been asked to show my green card, exceptions being entering the country after an overseas vacation and once proving that I didn't have to serve on a jury. I've never tried to vote, so I don't know what checks would have been made.
I've now initiated the process to become a citizen (long story as to why). Lots more paperwork. I'm hoping to be able to vote in November. I'll find out what happens when I register to vote. I assume they will want to see my citizenship papers or passport if I've had time to get one. It will be interesting to see if my drivers license (obtained as a non-citizen) will be accepted.
Off topic? OK, I believe that voting is so important to a democracy that every effort should be made to make it as easy as possible, consistent with reasonable precautions against fraud. I consider this requirement (subject of the thread) is a solution looking for a problem and the absence of a significant problem does not justify inconveniencing thousands (millions?) of people.
Forcing people to vote will not fly here as people so hate being ordered around. It seems to work in Australia. I think there are arguments on both sides. Perhaps some of our Ozzie friends can comment?
I've now initiated the process to become a citizen (long story as to why). Lots more paperwork. I'm hoping to be able to vote in November. I'll find out what happens when I register to vote. I assume they will want to see my citizenship papers or passport if I've had time to get one. It will be interesting to see if my drivers license (obtained as a non-citizen) will be accepted.
Off topic? OK, I believe that voting is so important to a democracy that every effort should be made to make it as easy as possible, consistent with reasonable precautions against fraud. I consider this requirement (subject of the thread) is a solution looking for a problem and the absence of a significant problem does not justify inconveniencing thousands (millions?) of people.
Forcing people to vote will not fly here as people so hate being ordered around. It seems to work in Australia. I think there are arguments on both sides. Perhaps some of our Ozzie friends can comment?
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
How authoritarian.
Magic Man
Reaper of Conversation
Because you want to drive, and they don't. You're talking about a driver's license, not a voter ID. If you don't need to drive, you don't have to go through what you did.
We Never Know
No Slack
Break the laws and like voting it can be taken away
I didn't say getting. If you lost your license today would you automatically become a worse driver? You would be illegal but I doubt worse.
The government should issue a voting ID to every US citizens who is qualified to vote.
We Never Know
No Slack
The license itself doesn't make any one drive better. If you lost your license today would you automatically become a worse driver? You would be illegal but I doubt worse.
Please explain how something like mandatory taxes and/or mandatory voting is "authoritarian." Or do you define "authoritarian" as anything that isn't pure anarchy (e.g., all government is authoritarian)?
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Voting was never set up as compulsory in this country in the first place.
Compulsory voting is just as bad as poll taxation was which was summarily discontinued for clear and obvious reasons.
People likewise can take compulsory voting and shove it up their asses. This is meant as a free elective society. Not a dictatorial compulsory one.
True, but not sure why that would be relevant. When this country was set up, over half the population even didn't have the right to vote.
I wonder why democracies like Australia and Costa Rica have compulsory voting, then. If it is so clear and obvious it shouldn't be done, surely these democratic nations wouldn't be doing it. As such, it would make sense to explain these allegedly clear and obvious reasons. There are some potential problems with any sort of compulsory system (see - taxation in this country) but those problems are not inherent and depend on the specifics. I'm not seeing any reasoning here for throwing out the seeds with the soil. Especially when it can help resolve exactly the sort of problems this ruling introduces.
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
North Korea has compulsory voting as well and we know how that went.
People shouldn't be forced to vote for something they don't want , and not voting makes as much a statement as voting , with the only difference is you're being forced to show up at a door likely at gun point and or robbing one of their money for non compliance , contrasted with not showing up at the door without having someone threatening you at gun point and or robbing you of your money , which is why it's distinctly authoritarian.
Compulsory legislation is not conducive of a free elective society, but a restricted regulated one.
I still don't understand your objection - as mentioned, there are potential problems with any sort of compulsory system but those problems are not inherent and depend on the specifics. None of what you talk about here would be necessary to implement with mandatory voting. I'm pretty sure neither Costa Rica nor Australia have armed government officials going around to the homes of citizens demanding their ballots and that they be marked only with the "correct" candidates or face punishment. If they did, sure, that'd be authoritarianism. But neither mandatory taxation nor mandatory voting is inherently authoritarian. Again, I don't see the wisdom in throwing out the seeds with the soil.