AhmadSyahir
Active Member
Again, you're a man of no point. There's different between 'Solah' and 'How to' perform it. The al-quran itself told us to hold on both quran and sunnah (hadith).
You should aware of that.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
No doubt in Qur'an [2.2] , but who doubt it ?
- Thread starter Union
- Start date
Again, you're a man of no point. There's different between 'Solah' and 'How to' perform it. The al-quran itself told us to hold on both quran and sunnah (hadith).
You should aware of that.
Union
Well-Known Member
You can think whatsoever of me , you have freedom for that . I sealed my deal about Salah in details with ample proofs from the Quran . Hence nothing to change that .
I am really not aware of even a single verse of the Qur'an which says to hold Hadith/Sunnah of the Prophet . Can you make ne aware of that , please . But don't play hide and seek . I want a verse clearly related Hadith/Sunnah to the Prophet .
A-ManESL
Well-Known Member
Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and beware (of evil): if ye do turn back, know ye that it is Our Messenger's duty to proclaim (the Message) in the clearest manner. (5: 92).
O ye who believe! obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: that is best, and most suitable for final determination. (4: 59).
So take what the Messenger assigns to you, and deny yourselves that which he withholds from you. And fear Allah; for Allah is strict in Punishment. (59: 7).
But no, by thy Lord, they can have no (real) Faith, until they make thee judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction. (4: 65).
But for the Grace of Allah to thee and His Mercy, a party of them would certainly have plotted to lead thee astray. But (in fact) they will only lead their own souls astray, and to thee they can do no harm in the least. For Allah hath sent down to thee the Book and Wisdom and taught thee what thou knewest not (before): and great is the Grace of Allah unto. (4: 113).
Say: "If ye do love Allah, follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins; for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." (3: 31).
Then We put thee on the (right) Way of Religion: so follow thou that (Way), and follow not the desires of those who know not. (45: 18).
He who obeys the Messenger, obeys Allah; but if any turn away, We have not sent thee to watch over their (evil deeds). (4: 80).
Say: "Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger: but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message). (24: 54).
When they are summoned to Allah and His Messenger, in order that He may judge between them, behold, some of them decline (to come). (24: 48).
Deem not the summons of the Messenger among yourselves like the summons of one of you to another: Allah doth know those of you who slip away under shelter of some excuse: then let those beware who withstand the Messenger's order, lest some trial befall them, or a grievous Penalty be inflicted on them. (24: 63).
Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the praise of Allah. (33: 21).
O ye who believe! obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: that is best, and most suitable for final determination. (4: 59).
So take what the Messenger assigns to you, and deny yourselves that which he withholds from you. And fear Allah; for Allah is strict in Punishment. (59: 7).
But no, by thy Lord, they can have no (real) Faith, until they make thee judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction. (4: 65).
But for the Grace of Allah to thee and His Mercy, a party of them would certainly have plotted to lead thee astray. But (in fact) they will only lead their own souls astray, and to thee they can do no harm in the least. For Allah hath sent down to thee the Book and Wisdom and taught thee what thou knewest not (before): and great is the Grace of Allah unto. (4: 113).
Say: "If ye do love Allah, follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins; for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." (3: 31).
Then We put thee on the (right) Way of Religion: so follow thou that (Way), and follow not the desires of those who know not. (45: 18).
He who obeys the Messenger, obeys Allah; but if any turn away, We have not sent thee to watch over their (evil deeds). (4: 80).
Say: "Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger: but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message). (24: 54).
When they are summoned to Allah and His Messenger, in order that He may judge between them, behold, some of them decline (to come). (24: 48).
Deem not the summons of the Messenger among yourselves like the summons of one of you to another: Allah doth know those of you who slip away under shelter of some excuse: then let those beware who withstand the Messenger's order, lest some trial befall them, or a grievous Penalty be inflicted on them. (24: 63).
Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the praise of Allah. (33: 21).
Union
Well-Known Member
You failed to produce even a single verse relating Hadith/Sunnah to the Prophet , which was originally asked :
Following the messenger is already discussed here in details :
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/quranist-dir/116788-what-does-obey-god-obey-messenger.html
Union
Well-Known Member
No , there is a big difference between those two . Muhammad with his own Sunnah (Human Muhammad) and Muhammad with the message (Qur'an) of ALLAH , swt (Messenger Muhammad) are completely different person . It is not my personal opinion rather clarified by Almighty ALLAH , Himself in Qur'an . Read the following verse :
[34:50] قل ان ضللت فانما اضل على نفسي وان اهتديت فبما يوحي الي ربي انه سميع قريب
[034:050] Say: "If I am astray, I only stray to the loss of my own soul: but if I receive guidance, it is because of the Wahi of my Lord to me: it is He Who hears all things, and is (ever) near."
The above verse depicts Prophet Muhammad as :
Muhammad + Wahi (Quran) = A perfect Muhammad (1)
Muhammad Wahi (Quran) = An erroneous Muhammad .(2)
(1) can also be expressed as : Muhammad + Message (Quran) = Messenger Muhammad (3)
(2) can also be expressed as : Muhammad Message (Quran) =Ordinary human Muhammad with his sunnah (4)
In verse 34:50 Muhammad of (1)+(3) is اهتديت (guided) because of
يوحي الي ربي(Wahi from his Lord)
In verse 34:50 Muhammad of (2)+(3) is اضل (erred) because of نفسي (His own self , i.e., his Suunah )
Following few examples will establish the facts that indeed the Prophet Muhammad made mistakes and erred because his own Sunnah <His own action/opinion/words> .
Example from Qur'an :
01.
[008:067] It is not fitting for an apostle that he should have prisoners of war until he hath thoroughly subdued the land. Ye look for the temporal goods of this world; but God looketh to the Hereafter: And God is Exalted in might, Wise.
[008:068] Had it not been for a previous ordainment from God, a severe penalty would have reached you for the (ransom) that ye took.
[008:069] But (now) enjoy what ye took in war, lawful and good: but fear God: for God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
In the above verses Almighty ALLAH (swt) clearly showed HIS dislike about the strategy of the Prophet Muhammad concerning the captives of war . It unpleased GOD (swt) such a way that HE even threatened Adhabe Azeem ( Great Punishment) for the Prophet and his companions for taking such wrong decision.
02.
[066:001] O Prophet! Why holdest thou to be forbidden that which God has made lawful to thee? Thou seekest to please thy consorts. But God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
[066:002] God has already ordained for you, (O men), the dissolution of your oaths (in some cases): and God is your Protector, and He is Full of Knowledge and Wisdom.
The above noble verse is another example where Prophet made a gross mistake by exchanging Halal to haram just to please his wives . Almighty ALLAH (swt) found it objectionable and rectified as well as warned him . Should we need to follow everything the Prophet did/said , we could swap around the haram and halal and still we would be rewarded for performing the Sunnah . It is very clear that such a horrendous act cant be accepted by Almighty GOD . Rather HE, the Exalted warned :
[016:116] But say not for any false thing that your tongues may put forth,- This is lawful , and this is forbidden, so as to ascribe false things to God. For those who ascribe false things to God, will never prosper.
03.
Now let see the famous incident of Abasa :
[080:001] (The Prophet) frowned and turned away,
[080:002] Because there came to him the blind man (interrupting).
[080:003] But what could tell thee but that perchance he might grow (in spiritual understanding)?-
[080:004] Or that he might receive admonition, and the teaching might profit him?
[080:005] As to one who regards Himself as self-sufficient,
[080:006] To him dost thou attend;
[080:007] Though it is no blame to thee if he grow not (in spiritual understanding).
[080:008] But as to him who came to thee striving earnestly,
[080:009] And with fear (in his heart),
[080:010] Of him wast thou unmindful.
In the above set of verses GOD almighty criticized the Prophet for ignoring or belittling a blind man . This is a general instruct to the prophet as well as for us not to show any disrespect or attitude of ignorance to the poor or weak people while flattering the rich and strong ones . Therefore we should not follow this Sunnah of the Prophet , not all .
Examples from Hadith :
01.
Aisha reported that two persons visited Allahs Messenger and both of them talked about a thing, of which I am not aware, but that annoyed him and he invoked curse upon both of them and hurled malediction, and when they went out I said: Allahs Messenger, the good would reach everyone but it would not reach these two. He said: Why so? I said: Because you have invoked curse and hurled malediction upon both of them. He said: Dont you know that I have made condition with my Lord saying thus: O Allah, I am a human being and that for a Muslim upon whom I invoke curse or hurl malediction make it a source of purity and reward? (Sahih Muslim, Book 032, Number 6285)
02.
Abu Huraira reported Allahs Apostle as saying: O Allah, I make a covenant with Thee against which Thou wouldst never go. I am a human being and thus for a Muslim whom I give any harm or whom I scold or upon whom I invoke a curse or whom i beat, make this a source of blessing, purification and nearness to Thee on the Day of Resurrection. (Sahih Muslim, Book 032, Number 6290)
03.
Salim, the freed slave of Nasriyyin, said: I heard Abu Huraira as saying that he heard Allahs Messenger as saying: O Allah, Muhammad is a human being. I lose my temper just as human beings lose temper, and I have held a covenant with Thee which Thou wouldst not break: For a believer whom I give any trouble or invoke curse or beat, make that an expiation (of his sins and a source of) his nearness to Thee on the Day of Resurrection. (Sahih Muslim, Book 032, Number 6293)
04.
Anas b. Malik reported that there was an orphan girl with Umm Sulaim (who was the mother of Anas). Allahs Messenger saw that orphan girl and said: O, it is you; you have grown young. may you not advance in years! That slave-girl returned to Umm Sulaim weeping. Umm Sulaim said: O daughter, what is the matter with you? She said: Allahs Apostle has invoked curse upon me that I should not grow in age and thus I would never grow in age, or she said, in my (length) of life. Umm Sulaim went out wrapping her head-dress hurriedly until she met Allahs Messenger. He said to her: Umm Sulaim, what is the matter with you? She said: Allahs Apostle, you invoked curse upon my orphan girl. He said: Umm Sulaim, what is that? She said: She (the orphan girl) states you have cursed her saying that she might not grow in age or grow in life. Allahs Messenger smiled and then said: Umm Sulaim, dont you know that I have made this term with my Lord. And the term with my Lord is that I said to Him: I am a human being and I am pleased just as a human being is pleased and I lose temper just as a human being loses temper, so for any person from amongst my Ummah whom I curse and he in no way deserves it, let that, O Lord, be made a source of purification and purity and nearness to (Allah) on the Day of Resurrection. (Sahih Muslim, Book 032, Number 6297)
Have a good day .
A-ManESL
Well-Known Member
So your position is that following the Prophet is not the same as sunnah? I am not clear as to what you are saying here.
Secondly, I agree that even the Prophet (pbuh) made some wrong decisions. But he was a person with knowledge.
Does not the Quran say,
Either one has to be well-founded in knowledge to understand the true intentions of the Quran. One's own nature will incline one towards evil (12:53), and ordinary people (like me) have to take guidance from the Prophet therefore. You may take the guidance in spirit or may take in letter but you have to take guidance (unless you are well-founded in knowledge).
Secondly, I agree that even the Prophet (pbuh) made some wrong decisions. But he was a person with knowledge.
Does not the Quran say,
Either one has to be well-founded in knowledge to understand the true intentions of the Quran. One's own nature will incline one towards evil (12:53), and ordinary people (like me) have to take guidance from the Prophet therefore. You may take the guidance in spirit or may take in letter but you have to take guidance (unless you are well-founded in knowledge).
Union
Well-Known Member
Yes , my position is 'obey the messenger' doesn't mean that we have to follow the Sunnah of Prophet as described in Ahadith . Prophet's Sunnah is what has been described in Qur'an . When ALLAH , swt, says ' The adulteress and the adulterer you shall whip each of them a hundred lashes [24:2]' , I understand that the Prophet Muhammad did the same and that was his Sunnah not stoning as described in Hadith . Just giving you an example.
About the mistakes , nothing to say , as you agreed.....
Prophet Muhammad was the most knowledgeable person without a shadow of doubt . Omniscient GOD's wisdom transmitted into HIS slaves through Prophet Muhammad , which was an extra-ordinary job , can be accomplished by an extra-ordinary human only . Not only that he implemented the whole Qur'an in his life which in turns made him a symbol of the 'living Qur'an' . He talked Qur'an , he walked Qur'an , taught Qur'an , learned Qur'an , lived Qur'an and left Qur'an ONLY for us .
But verse 3:7 has nothing to do with that . As you know , it divided all the revelations into two categories :
01- Straight forward verses , which are the substances of the Qur'an . Hence no need any secondary person/source to explain them.
02- Allegorical verses , which needed to be explained by the knowledgeable persons . This is open for any person and for any time , whomever Almighty ALLAH endowed that opportunity . For example , the speed of light can be determined in Qur'an , which was not discovered for almost 1400 years . All Praise to Almighty ALLAH that HE chose somebody to disclose that . Or the ratio of the land to water of the earth , which presented in Qur'an miraculously , just been discovered . The example can be added hundreds but simply it is evident that allegorical verses of the Qur'an is not a subject for GOD to direct to any specific person or any specific time .
Thanks.
A-ManESL
Well-Known Member
I have three points to make:
1. My position is that both punishments 100 lashes and stoning are allegorical and indicative, both were in the context of time. This is as clear to me and I feel it to be true, as it is clear to you that it is 100 lashes literally.
2. I am not asking your position on "obeying the messenger" but on "following the Prophet".(3:31) Is your position that in the Quran when God instructs Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) to ask people to follow him, he really means that they should follow Quran. Should the verse 3:31 "Say: If ye do love Allah, follow me" be better understood as "Say: If ye do love Allah, follow the Quran"? I so, why do you think God did not use the latter and avoid the confusion?
3. I am poor in knowledge and I need guidance from people who have knowledge. I cannot relate to many verses of the Quran. (One of them being "He is the inward, he is the outward"). Such people in my life have instructed me to follow the Sunnah. I cannot judge such people and say they are wrong because I do not have the requisite knowledge. If you can do so, then fine. I innately feel that no matter what path one follows, if one is true to himself and to God he will be rewarded with the knowledge of God. People think that it is by their own efforts they get knowledge but it is only by the grace of God.
Regards
1. My position is that both punishments 100 lashes and stoning are allegorical and indicative, both were in the context of time. This is as clear to me and I feel it to be true, as it is clear to you that it is 100 lashes literally.
2. I am not asking your position on "obeying the messenger" but on "following the Prophet".(3:31) Is your position that in the Quran when God instructs Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) to ask people to follow him, he really means that they should follow Quran. Should the verse 3:31 "Say: If ye do love Allah, follow me" be better understood as "Say: If ye do love Allah, follow the Quran"? I so, why do you think God did not use the latter and avoid the confusion?
3. I am poor in knowledge and I need guidance from people who have knowledge. I cannot relate to many verses of the Quran. (One of them being "He is the inward, he is the outward"). Such people in my life have instructed me to follow the Sunnah. I cannot judge such people and say they are wrong because I do not have the requisite knowledge. If you can do so, then fine. I innately feel that no matter what path one follows, if one is true to himself and to God he will be rewarded with the knowledge of God. People think that it is by their own efforts they get knowledge but it is only by the grace of God.
Regards
Last edited:
Union
Well-Known Member
Firstly , stoning is never mentioned in the Quran . It is mentioned in Bible and Hadith . Hence for Muslims it is not the law decreed by ALLAH , swt. Secondly, 100 lashes is not allegorical at all , Almighty ALLAH Himself clarified that one :
24:1 [FONT="]سورة[/FONT] [FONT="]انزلناها[/FONT] [FONT="]وفرضناها[/FONT] [FONT="]وانزلنا[/FONT] [FONT="]فيها[/FONT] [FONT="]ايات[/FONT] [FONT="]بينات[/FONT] [FONT="]لعلكم[/FONT] [FONT="]تذكرون[/FONT]
24:2 [FONT="]الزانية[/FONT] [FONT="]والزاني[/FONT] [FONT="]فاجلدوا[/FONT] [FONT="]كل[/FONT] [FONT="]واحد[/FONT] [FONT="]منهما[/FONT] [FONT="]مئة[/FONT] [FONT="]جلدة[/FONT] [FONT="]ولاتاخذكم[/FONT] [FONT="]بهما[/FONT] [FONT="]رافة[/FONT] [FONT="]في[/FONT] [FONT="]دين[/FONT] [FONT="]الله[/FONT] [FONT="]ان[/FONT] [FONT="]كنتم[/FONT] [FONT="]تؤمنون[/FONT] [FONT="]بالله[/FONT] [FONT="]واليوم[/FONT] [FONT="]الاخر[/FONT] [FONT="]وليشهد[/FONT] [FONT="]عذابهما[/FONT] [FONT="]طائفة[/FONT] [FONT="]من[/FONT] [FONT="]المؤمنين[/FONT]
[024:001] (This is) a chapter which We have revealed and made obligatory and in which We have revealed clear communications that you may be mindful.
[024:002] (As for) the fornicatress and the fornicator, flog each of them, (giving) a hundred stripes, and let not pity for them detain you in the matter of obedience to Allah, if you believe in Allah and the last day, and let a party of believers witness their chastisement.
Before giving the law of adultery in verse 02 , in verse 01 Almighty ALLAH has clarified that any law coming forth in this chapter are obligatory (Faradh) and unambiguous/clear/clarified (Bayynah) . Hence the law of adultery cant be allegorical nor symbolic . It is a state of practically implementable in society .
They are the same things . You Just look at the next verse and you will find what I was meaning is what GOD , the Almighty has said :
[FONT="][003:031] Say, (O Muhammad, to mankind): If ye love Allah, follow me; Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.[/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="][003:032] Say: Obey Allah and obey the messenger. But if they turn away, lo! Allah loveth not the disbelievers (in His guidance).[/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]Hence follow me and follow the messenger are the synonyms for one another and taking us to the same track . On the top of that follow me and follow the Quran are also pointing the same thing because Prophet Muhammad recited the verses of the Quran and instructed people to follow the Quran . In same time he implemented the Quran in his life . Hence nobody can follow the Quran without following the Prophet or vice-verse . As the verses said :[/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[006:050] Say: "I tell you not that with me are the treasures of God, nor do I know what is hidden, nor do I tell you I am an angel. I but follow what is revealed to me." Say: "can the blind be held equal to the seeing?" Will ye then consider not?
[010:015] But when Our Clear Signs are rehearsed unto them, those who rest not their hope on their meeting with Us, Say: "Bring us a Quran other than this, or change this," Say: "It is not for me, of my own accord, to change it: I follow naught but what is revealed unto me: if I were to disobey my Lord, I should myself fear the penalty of a Great Day (to come)."
[046:009] Say: "I am no bringer of new-fangled doctrine among the apostles, nor do I know what will be done with me or with you. I follow but that which is revealed to me by inspiration; I am but a Warner open and clear."
[005:048] To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what God hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If God had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to God; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;
[005:049] And this (He commands): Judge thou between them by what God hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, but beware of them lest they beguile thee from any of that (teaching) which God hath sent down to thee. And if they turn away, be assured that for some of their crime it is God's purpose to punish them. And truly most men are rebellious.
Hence , the simple equation goes like that :
We------(follow)----->Proph.Muhammad------(followed)----> Quran
I do really respect your personal feeling about it ...
I myself do not take any one for granted as long as I verify him/her under the microscope of the essence of the Qur'an .
A-ManESL
Well-Known Member
Well, as regards 24:2 you have translated it in two different ways:
and
Did you copy it from somewhere without looking for there is a difference between fornication and adultery which some people point out while explaining this difference in punishment (of stoning and lashes)?
As for me, I quite hold to the idea that both these punishments are allegorical and 24:1 translates as "[This is] a chapter We have sent down and ordained. We send clear signs down in it so that you (all) may be reminded." has to be understood to mean that clear signs are present in this chapter (that we ought to discern between the relative bad and good, and the bad being punished, the good being rewarded). It is my firm belief and faith that the whole way of reading the Quran in a strict legalistic fashion, devoid of looking at the intention, is a-priory flawed. I posit that the Quran was never meant to be read in this way. Its message is couched in a heart to heart talk from God to man. This is as clear and self-evident to me as it is clear to you that the literal interpretation of the verses of the Quran is correct.
This is but a small example. I think most of the things you take literally (such as existence of Adam and Eve) would fall in this category for me.
Regards
and
Did you copy it from somewhere without looking for there is a difference between fornication and adultery which some people point out while explaining this difference in punishment (of stoning and lashes)?
As for me, I quite hold to the idea that both these punishments are allegorical and 24:1 translates as "[This is] a chapter We have sent down and ordained. We send clear signs down in it so that you (all) may be reminded." has to be understood to mean that clear signs are present in this chapter (that we ought to discern between the relative bad and good, and the bad being punished, the good being rewarded). It is my firm belief and faith that the whole way of reading the Quran in a strict legalistic fashion, devoid of looking at the intention, is a-priory flawed. I posit that the Quran was never meant to be read in this way. Its message is couched in a heart to heart talk from God to man. This is as clear and self-evident to me as it is clear to you that the literal interpretation of the verses of the Quran is correct.
This is but a small example. I think most of the things you take literally (such as existence of Adam and Eve) would fall in this category for me.
Regards
Last edited:
Union
Well-Known Member
you are right , I didn't look at the translation of Zina there as my focus was on something . Zina means adultery and fornication both . Moreover stoning is not a part of Quarnic rule hence out of the equation from the very beginning .
I can't force you to change your position but it is logical and rational that an allegorical verse can't be Fardh (Obligatory) and Bayyna (clear/straight-forward) .
Regard to you also.
AhmadSyahir
Active Member
Those who don't hold unto hadith can even void their faith. Do you obey Rasulullah S.A.W? Hadith is the deed of Rasulullah that recorded by his companions. Are you telling me that you don't belief in Sahabah and Rasulullah?
This is a hadith from sahabah:
'I left two things for all of you. As long as you hold unto both of it, you will never be lost forever. Which is Kitabullah(al-quran) and Sunnah(recorded as hadith).' (HR. Abu Hurairah r.a)
You have 'disease' in yourself. You don't know the detail and you don't want to believe when others told you.
How to perform Solah?
Rasulullah S.A.W says: Perform it as I perform it.
In other word, do as Rasulullah S.A.W done. Do like how you see Rasulullah S.A.W perform the solah.
The people that witnessed Muhammad S.A.W performing Solah was his companions.
What Rasulullah S.A.W done is recorded by his companion. And now you told me that Solah from hadith is taught by the Narrator of the hadith. You're wrong!! It's taught by Muhammad S.A.W and recorded by his companions.
AhmadSyahir
Active Member
Stoning to those who commits adultery(married) has a 'strong' hadith. It was told by Rasulullah and recorded by his companions. You can't deny hadith just like that.
Again, hadith is the recorded deeds of Rasulullah S.A.W by his companions. If you deny it without reasons, you may void your faith.
If you accuse the companion of Rasulullah S.A.W as a 'liar', how can Islam that we learn today still standing? Al-Quran itself is memorized by the companions of Muhammad S.A.W. and was collected and written (officially) at the time of Uthman r.a as a caliph. It's basically memorized like the hadith.
Al-Quran is not sent down by Allah as one Book. It's sent down by Allah to Muhammad S.A.W through Malaikat Jibril 'gradually'.
Union
Well-Known Member
Can you show me a single verses from the Qur'an that if somebody reject the Hadith , he will become a Kafeer ? In fact I was asking for a single verse from the Qur'an where the Hadith is related with Prophet and I can't see you are coming with even one .
Secondly , obey RasuALLAH means obey the Qur'an and not Hadith . Here is a link for you where this issue was discussed elaborately :
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/quranist-dir/116788-what-does-obey-god-obey-messenger.html
Lastly , Ahadith were compiled +200 years after the demise of the Prophet . Not a single companion of the Prophet was alive that time to testify those Ahadith . Hence it is illogical to called Hadith are from the companions . I hope you understand what I wanted to mean .
Thanks a lot for bringing this Hadith . In fact this will add more colors in our discussion. To me the Hadith you mentioned is the most important Hadeeth ever , because it shaped the Shia/Sunni Islam . For your kind information this Hadeeth got three different versions :
01. I leave with you Quran and Sunnah Ref.Muwatta, 46/3
02. I leave with you Quran and Ahl al-bayt Ref. Muslim 44/4, Nu2408; ibn hanbal 4/366; darimi 23/1, nu 3319.
03. I leave for you the Quran alone you shall uphold it.
Ref.Muslim 15/19, nu 1218; ibn Majah 25/84, Abu dawud 11/56, Sahih Muslim, Book of Hajj, Book 7 , Number 2803
Now it is your turn to tell me which Hadeeth is true and which are not .
What detail you are talking about ? Detail it .
Salah of Muhammad is the Salah mentioned in the Qur'an . This has been discussed thoroughly in the previous posts . If you want to discuss it again , I won't mind .
To prove me wrong you have to take my simple challenge . Show me any manuscript of Hadith recorded by the companions of Prophet .
Union
Well-Known Member
This could be the augmenting of the previous post . You have to show me the written manuscript of Hadeeth straight from the companions of the prophet as they did in the case of Qur'an , they memorized the Qur'an , they wrote it down and preserved it for their next generation .
AhmadSyahir
Active Member
You're extremist brother.
I have told you and i'm going to tell you once again. Sunnah is the deed of Muhammad S.A.W that recorded by his companions. One of his companions was also the one who collect Al-Quran and make an official Quran to make it easier for muslim and to ensure it can be read by the next generation.
Both Al-Quran and Hadith is only memorized(not in written form) at first by the companions of Muhammad S.A.W but written later to pass it to the next generation. Al-Quran is from Allah and Muhammad S.A.W is his messenger. "Muhammad S.A.W's manner is the manner of Al-Quran". Muhammad S.A.W's manner and deed was recorded as hadith by his companions.
Now tell me, if you don't believe in Sahabah, how can you believe in Al-Quran because both of them were collected and standardized by Sahabah? I'm sunni and I only believe hadith that accepted sahih by sunni's Ulama'.
I can't believe there's people who read Al-Quran but being ignorant as you.
If you still don't understand me, I'll simplify it for you. Al-Quran is guidance and hadith is detailing of it. Allah is the most intelligence. If Allah create Al-Quran with the full detailing, the Al-Quran will be too thick and maybe there will be separate volume of Al-Quran. But Allah create it perfect which is the Al-Quran that we read today. Only Allah know the best! Forgive my mistake if there is.
Union
Well-Known Member
You failed to show me any written manuscript of Hadith direct from the companions of the Prophet and that answers the fallacy of your belief that Hadith are from the sahaba . Let me not waste much time on that as for a rational reader it is very clear that Hadeeth were from some alien persons written some hundreds years latter after the prophet and his companions .
Another issue you tactfully avoid , where I asked you to enlighten me on the following three contradictory Ahadeeth :
01. I leave with you Quran and Sunnah Ref.Muwatta, 46/3
02. I leave with you Quran and Ahl al-bayt Ref. Muslim 44/4, Nu2408; ibn hanbal 4/366; darimi 23/1, nu 3319.
03. I leave for you the Quran alone you shall uphold it.
Ref.Muslim 15/19, nu 1218; ibn Majah 25/84, Abu dawud 11/56, Sahih Muslim, Book of Hajj, Book 7 , Number 2803
Are you going to do it this time , or still going to avoid all those logical factors which put the whole Hadeeth issues under a big Question mark ?
If you are a guy who just close his eyes and says 'there is no sun ever' , I may not can do anything for you ......
AhmadSyahir
Active Member
You're wrong. There's a written manuscript of hadith. I have not buy it yet because it's very thick and there's nobody that very good in hadith nearby to teach me.
Who do you think Abu Hurairah is? He's one of the companions of Rasulullah S.A.W. Abu Hurairah is a narrator of hadith. Who is alien now? Abu Hurairah?
Do you know how we get to know the story and life of our beloved Muhammad
ibn Abdullah? It's through hadith that recorded by his companion. If you deny hadith, you will also deny the story of Muhammad S.A.W.
The battle of Badr, the battle of Uhud and all battle that occurs. The name of his companions and even the deeds of Rasulullah S.A.W. Do you deny the existance of all that? Do you deny the history of muslim?
Hadith too need to be research like Al-Quran. So, many aspect need to be considered. Just a line-two of hadith cannot be a strong proof until it's proven by those who're good in hadith. Only Allah know the best.
Union
Well-Known Member
I don't think you understand me what I am talking about . Are you saying that thick book is written by companions of the Prophet and well preserved for 1400 years ?
A. Hurarirah died on about 680 AD and the Hadeeth , for example Shahih bukhari was compiled on about 850 AD , the difference between their time line was almost 170 years .Therefore those Ahadith narrated by A. Hurarirah in Bukhari were actually narrations of Bukhari , allegly put in the mouth of A. hurairah . Same case for any of the companions as the narrators of Ahadith . Their names were used allegedly there while the the real propagator of Hadeeth were some alien persons who were born 100 years after those noble compnanions .
I don't have any problem to take Hadeeth book as the story/history book . But I have problem to consider Hadeeth as the source of Islam , because 100% Islam is being found inside the Qur'an . We no need any single Hadeeth to know Islam , Qur'an is enough for us .
Yes , do more research and ask the Muhadeeths about that contradictory Hadeeth , I will wait for you till that time you will have an answer , no problem for that .