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"No evidence of God" = Is a bad argument against God

vulcanlogician

Well-Known Member
Using that template: if I happen to believe that the pain and suffering of other people are good, I can also base my entire moral system on that. Some people get great pleasure from the pain of others.

You certainly could. So, we'd want to first figure out, "Is it good to cause the suffering of others?"

If we arrive at "yes" as an answer to that question, then, I suppose the next step would be to develop an ethical system based on hurting others. I'm not ready to say "yes" to that. In fact, the answer I'm prone to want to defend is "no." And I have a plethora of reasons for that.
 

vulcanlogician

Well-Known Member
Well if you believe we are just animals then you would not kill so much as a bug, I would think. Of course that goes against everything your ancestors did to survive.
I happen to be a hunter... I literally stabbed a fish this morning just to tan his skin. I don't feel any regrets...if that were a human being it would be a far different story.

I'm not ready to judge a person good or bad because they hunt or eat meat. I just think the moral status of these things can be reasonably questioned. It's a discussion that can be had. And (to me) it seems like an important discussion.

Your ancestors may have done a lot more than hunt to survive. You or I may exist solely because one of our ancestors commited rape at one time. That's not a very good reason to deem rape acceptable is it?

You have to examine the act itself. NOT whether it has been done before. Not if it has been accepted historically.
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
You have to examine the act itself. NOT whether it has been done before. Not if it has been accepted historically.
Ok so I stabbed a fish and a woman walking her dog watched me do it... you know what happened? Nothing. Why? Because a carp isn't considered to have a lot of value in our society. If I had stabbed her dog, what would have happened, or God forbid, a human?
We all place different values on different species.
I do examine the act itself and the fact is, we can't live without causing the death of some animals.

In your system, ethics are obviously completely relative. In my system, I have a list of commands that tell me what is moral and what isn't. I see no reason for objective morality in a system without a higher authority.
 

vulcanlogician

Well-Known Member
Ok so I stabbed a fish and a woman walking her dog watched me do it... you know what happened? Nothing. Why? Because a carp isn't considered to have a lot of value in our society. If I had stabbed her dog, what would have happened, or God forbid, a human?
We all place different values on different species.
I do examine the act itself and the fact is, we can't live without causing the death of some animals.

In your system, ethics are obviously completely relative. In my system, I have a list of commands that tell me what is moral and what isn't. I see no reason for objective morality in a system without a higher authority.

I'm not a relativist, btw. I have no idea what gave you that idea. In fact, I think relativism is the worst metaethical theory out there. I don't consider it tenable at all.

You, on the other hand, strike me as a total relativist. (At least when you think for yourself about the issue.) "Why is stabbing a fish okay? Because SOCIETY thinks it's okay." THAT is cultural relativism: "A moral edict is only true according to the prevailing belief of a culture or society."

If I say that suffering is bad and happiness is good, that's not relativism. That's taking a firm moral position. Some actions are immoral according to my way of thinking. Other actions are good (or praiseworthy) according to my way of thinking. My way of thinking about these things is that (as far as I can tell) there really is a such thing as morality. That makes me "not a relativist."

If you ask a relativist, "Is slavery morally permissible?" their answer would be "In cultures that permit it, it is permissible." My answer is "no."

Maybe you would ask your God or refer to your holy book to answer the question "Is slavery permissible?" In the same way, I refer to my ethical principles, which (ideally) derive from an accurate understanding of reality. You could also ask if your ancestors practiced slavery to figure out if it's permissible... but as I said before, I have reservations about that approach.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
History memory two humans.

We are all two humans exact.

As baby to adult humans our thinking human says I can never be my two human parents. Not ever.

Human biology in nature says so.
Human observation first is natural says so.

Human with machines using machine thesis that begin with all earth substances is human life's destroyer.

An exact humans warning. Legal. An exact humans teachings.

Humans Thinking using human words as humans on earth invented human sciences.

Direct exact human legal advice.

Human theists proven lying said it's proven as humans legal advice.

Only a shut bible was humans holy truth no preaching theism allowed.

Everyday humans keep reiterating an already known human past life status. The testimonial proven real human life had been attacked. Twice by humans control choice science. Science had been stopped.

Yet today here you all are re reading advice quantified as evil. Reclaiming life being sacrificed is old proof too. Yet ignore why you claim it real.

Humans with machines are liars and life's destroyer.

Moses never owned any scientific human reasons why life was living on planet earth first.

Natural self present humans had existed to practice human science was quantified after life was nearly human science destroyed as a human written document.

So it discussed the end of life.

Anyone theorising it hence is reviewing how to destroy life on earth.

Owning machines as the human life advised.

No machines real as you can't theory about why dirt exists on planet earth when once the planet was a burning ball of energy and gases.

Said rational humans versus science our Satan brother.

Taught correct humans consciousness. Is human by man's thought owned as humans. Human first.

Two types of humans live on earth. Those who use consciousness correctly. And those who think for satanic machine sciences.

If a biologist thinking which means I can use pretend. Which it is in theory using a humans thoughts only first position.

That two apes had sex produced first two human like parents. Is in legal terms a story theme said by a human owning human life.

Legally biology living terms says closest human identified advice. As living biology yet it's only a story.

Reason it's said as human only legal advice. Is humans who use machines that never existed. They use earths planet substances to make pretend stories only first. But claim their story just human correct is by machine status.

Machines don't even exist.

Which legally is far eviler pretend by humans hierarchial status than a human biologists story. Comparing a humans healthy life biology consciousness to a lesser living status.

Is what causes humans to be angered.

Yet you should realise it's because you know humans should not be theorising against self presence.

Says the human used human taught legal system implemented to keep humans natural life safe on planet earth.

When science had been outlawed and the book of human science theories shut to be quantified sworn oath of truth telling only. Then it had been.

Only brain changed humans by earths star fall chose to repractice the arts of life's destruction on earth. By status a rich man's own life review. Why and how.
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
You, on the other hand, strike me as a total relativist. (At least when you think for yourself about the issue.) "Why is stabbing a fish okay? Because SOCIETY thinks it's okay."
No, I said that's why nothing is done about killing fish because it's not considered unethical in our society. I didn't say that is how I justified it.
I have a moral code for the Bible that tells me I have dominion over the animals, and a responsibility to manage them correctly. That means eating them is fine and utilizing them for furs and leather is fine as long as a good balanced population is maintained to the best of our ability.

Atheism has only what each individual thinks is correct, so it's relative, no matter how often you claim otherwise.
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
If I say that suffering is bad and happiness is good, that's not relativism. That's taking a firm moral position. Some actions are immoral according to my way of thinking.
Direct contradiction. It's only your thoughts that determine morality,so it's totally relative.
Our thoughts about what is moral can change by the moment.
We need a higher standard than that to have objective ethics.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Using that template: if I happen to believe that the pain and suffering of other people are good, I can also base my entire moral system on that. Some people get great pleasure from the pain of others.

Yes you can, but you will probably soon learn the consequences of expressing such impulses in a community that finds them immoral. And of course, such people do not think in terms of what behavior is moral.

Well if you believe we are just animals then you would not kill so much as a bug, I would think.

I kill almost nothing except some insects in the home that I cannot capture. I'll carry cockroaches outside if one gets trapped in a dog bowl.

I literally stabbed a fish this morning just to tan his skin. I don't feel any regrets.

I gave up fishing as a boy when I let a fish slip off the hook and fall back into the ocean, and realized that my contribution to its life had been to rip its mouth open and then drop it in salt water. That was also the age when I last shot an animal, a crow on the wires with a BB gun, in its armpit. It didn't die right away, but it's flying was labored. It still haunts me.

I'm thinking back to our discussions on abortion, where we take the opposite side regarding the mora status of aborting presentient fetuses. You have that same burden for them that I do for the beasts. I feel nothing for the fetuses, and find aborting them to have about the same impact on my moral sensibilities as a cholecystectomy. Why? In my case, no reason. These are moral intuitions, things I discover about myself, not things I decide or choose. In your case, it is not innate. It is learned, both your lack of regard and respect for the beasts as ends with inherent value rather than means with only practical value, and your revulsion to abortion, which seems to be concentrated in people that go to churches, but not elsewhere.

Our thoughts about what is moral can change by the moment. We need a higher standard than that to have objective ethics.

You've got it exactly backward. There is no higher standard of ethics than that which reasonable, empathetic people can contrive. Biblical ethics are neither lofty nor objective just because Christians pronounce them to be.

In your system, ethics are obviously completely relative. In my system, I have a list of commands that tell me what is moral and what isn't. I see no reason for objective morality in a system without a higher authority.

There is no objective morality, and no higher moral authority than man. What you call objective morals are the subjective opinions of ancients that you believe are something else, something better, because you have been told so and have uncritically accepted that claim.

But it is easy to see that that moral system is greatly flawed by today's moral standard, which have been updated by moral relativists (humanists) using the principles of rational ethics applied to empathy (Golden Rule). It's how the so-called absolute morality that your Bible prescribes was updated to exclude slavery and autocracy, and why modern society fights its homophobia and misogyny.

I have a moral code for the Bible that tells me I have dominion over the animals, and a responsibility to manage them correctly. That means eating them is fine and utilizing them for furs and leather is fine as long as a good balanced population is maintained to the best of our ability.

And we can do better than that. There is no respect for the beasts in that position. It's all about exploiting them. I would call that attitude immoral. You call it part of an objective morality of divine origin. There's the problem with that attitude. You need a more flexible moral system, one that can grow, one you have been taught is inferior for that ability, what you call relativism.

Imagine using that language about dominion and a duty to manage with people today. Isn't that what characterized European colonialism? Rational ethics has moved to oppose that attitude, which is now largely viewed as immoral.
 

Bathos Logos

Active Member
This is how that post looked to me:

View attachment 63069

There were no quote tags used, and even if I was to assume the middle part was a quote, there's no indication who you are quoting. Hence, I think my question was perfectly valid.
Interesting. I went back and the quotes clearly appear in post #119 for me. I am assuming they do for others as well. Perhaps you are actively blocking the user with the handle "Trailblazer"?
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
I kill almost nothing except some insects in the home that I cannot capture. I'll carry cockroaches outside if one gets trapped in a dog bowl.
Do you eat? I assume you do so you kill a lot more than insects. Even if you only eat plants, millions of animals die when the field is cleared and when it's tilled and again when it's harvested.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Why do you assume you are reasonable or empathetic? In your world you are what the universe caused you to be.

Correct! And the universe made me, so I don't care about your arguments like this, but I still care about humans and can with reason differentiate between caring about what you are saying and caring in general.
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
And we can do better than that. There is no respect for the beasts in that position. It's all about exploiting them.
Wrong.
"The righteous care for the needs of their animals,
but the kindest acts of the wicked are cruel."


"Know well the condition of your flocks, and give attention to your herds,"( Proverbs)

We are to manage the animals with wisdom and kindness, not unnecessarily cruelty.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Wrong.
"The righteous care for the needs of their animals,
but the kindest acts of the wicked are cruel."


"Know well the condition of your flocks, and give attention to your herds,"( Proverbs)

We are to manage the animals with wisdom and kindness, not unnecessarily cruelty.

Who are you responding to?
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
Correct! And the universe made me, so I don't care about your arguments like this, but I still care about humans and can with reason differentiate between caring about what you are saying and caring in general.
Again if the universe caused everything you are, you just do what you are programmed to do.
 
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