No need for someone to try to derail others belief or religion

[Spirit of Light]

I think we all could be better at cheering and inspire those who are on a spiritual path, instead of trying to debunk them or telling them how wrong they are. When someone finds a path/teaching that truly reach deep into their soul, and they do their best to become better, some of the worst experience for them then is when others trying to tell them, you are wrong, or your belief is false, your religion is evil and so on. Maybe you think that of other's beliefs or religion, but why do your "negativity toward their belief" have to be told so to derail their path? How about if you do not believe, ask good questions to those who do believe, like. What does your religion do to your daily life, how do you understand this "topic" or just tell them it is good they found a path that can lead them to become even better as human beings.

My belief or understanding of the spiritual teaching I cultivate is for me to understand, so to make it possible for me to gain inner wisdom, for those who do not follow the same spiritual teaching it should not matter what I do in the cultivation, except for if you are interested in learning the same teaching too. then it is good to ask a question for learning, but no need to ask questions for tearing down something you have not yet understood why is told the way it is told.

Asking questions is good, as long the intention is good.
Asking questions for tearing someone down, is just an act of evil.

 

[sun rise]

I think we all could be better at cheering and inspire those who are on a spiritual path, instead of trying to debunk them or telling them how wrong they are.

That's a wonderful ideal. But from my experience the vast majority including myself feel that our way is best. That's human nature.

Some of us realize that while my way is best for me, that there are many ways to, in one image, "climb the mountain".

And there are religions which have a foundation of belief that if you don't follow the religion, you're doomed. That makes the situation seriously harder.

 

[Spirit of Light]

That's a wonderful ideal. But from my experience the vast majority including myself feel that our way is best. That's human nature.

Some of us realize that while my way is best for me, that there are many ways to, in one image, "climb the mountain".

And there are religions which have a foundation of belief that if you don't follow the religion, you're doomed. That makes the situation seriously harder.

What you say is true
But we can also think that they think the same as us, that what we believe is better than others. But is really better? or is that only because we feel our understanding must be better than theirs? When we found the path that fit us and we start to cultivate the teaching, we will experience that wow it is so good what the teaching says. I think everyone has it like this. and we want everyone else to feel what we feel. But. They already do feel what we feel, in their own choice of path. they think exactly the same as us, that they are right and we are wrong.
But both can be right. It is a personal path, personal cultivation from within our self. We feel this because of the teaching hits us deep in our soul. But that is the same they feel too.
So why not be happy for them Be a friend even they see the world in a different way.

 

[icehorse]

I think we all could be better at cheering and inspire those who are on a spiritual path, instead of trying to debunk them or telling them how wrong they are. When someone finds a path/teaching that truly reach deep into their soul, and they do their best to become better, some of the worst experience for them then is when others trying to tell them, you are wrong, or your belief is false, your religion is evil and so on.

Nice OP.

It seems to me that religious people OFTEN try to lay claim to spirituality. To me, this is a source of endless problems. I believe myself to be a VERY spiritual person and I abhor most religion.

So I think that the OP makes a very common mistake in conflating and intertwining the two..

 

[Spirit of Light]

Nice OP.

It seems to me that religious people OFTEN try to lay claim to spirituality. To me, this is a source of endless problems. I believe myself to be a VERY spiritual person and I abhor most religion.

So I think that the OP makes a very common mistake in conflating and intertwining the two..

Religion to me is an example, Christianity, Jewish, Islam. whereas Spiritual path is Buddhism, Hinduism, and even Falun Gong because in my experience they were not originally made to be religions, but a spiritual cultivation path, or maybe some would call them spiritual philosophy.

Religion in my understanding arises when humans put different rules on the scripture then it originally was meant to be. some would maybe call this Dogma or system made by man.

 

[Fool]

religion is a covering up. spirituality is an uncovering. the clothes do not make the man but the man does make the clothes.

 

[paarsurrey]

I think we all could be better at cheering and inspire those who are on a spiritual path, instead of trying to debunk them or telling them how wrong they are. When someone finds a path/teaching that truly reach deep into their soul, and they do their best to become better, some of the worst experience for them then is when others trying to tell them, you are wrong, or your belief is false, your religion is evil and so on. Maybe you think that of other's beliefs or religion, but why do your "negativity toward their belief" have to be told so to derail their path? How about if you do not believe, ask good questions to those who do believe, like. What does your religion do to your daily life, how do you understand this "topic" or just tell them it is good they found a path that can lead them to become even better as human beings.

My belief or understanding of the spiritual teaching I cultivate is for me to understand, so to make it possible for me to gain inner wisdom, for those who do not follow the same spiritual teaching it should not matter what I do in the cultivation, except for if you are interested in learning the same teaching too. then it is good to ask a question for learning, but no need to ask questions for tearing down something you have not yet understood why is told the way it is told.

Asking questions is good, as long the intention is good.
Asking questions for tearing someone down, is just an act of evil.

"Asking questions is good, as long the intention is good.
Asking questions for tearing someone down, is just an act of evil."

I agree with one here.
Prophet/Messenger Buddha did answer questions to people who asked him.

Regards

 

[Spirit of Light]

"Asking questions is good, as long the intention is good.
Asking questions for tearing someone down, is just an act of evil."

I agree with one here.
Prophet/Messenger Buddha did answer questions to people who asked him.

Regards

Buddha Sakyamuni as a teacher would answer questions because he was able to answer everything within his wisdom. He is a buddha/ enlighten one. But questions above his wisdom level would be difficult even for him to answer But when it comes to disrespect or negative asked questions he would often return with a question, or just keep silent

 

[Nimos]

I think we all could be better at cheering and inspire those who are on a spiritual path, instead of trying to debunk them or telling them how wrong they are. When someone finds a path/teaching that truly reach deep into their soul, and they do their best to become better, some of the worst experience for them then is when others trying to tell them, you are wrong, or your belief is false, your religion is evil and so on. Maybe you think that of other's beliefs or religion, but why do your "negativity toward their belief" have to be told so to derail their path? How about if you do not believe, ask good questions to those who do believe, like. What does your religion do to your daily life, how do you understand this "topic" or just tell them it is good they found a path that can lead them to become even better as human beings.

My belief or understanding of the spiritual teaching I cultivate is for me to understand, so to make it possible for me to gain inner wisdom, for those who do not follow the same spiritual teaching it should not matter what I do in the cultivation, except for if you are interested in learning the same teaching too. then it is good to ask a question for learning, but no need to ask questions for tearing down something you have not yet understood why is told the way it is told.

Asking questions is good, as long the intention is good.
Asking questions for tearing someone down, is just an act of evil.

I like your view on this and truly wished that it could be that simple.

I can obviously only speak for my self, and have said it a lot of times before, that I really don't care what people believe in, as long as it doesn't cause harm to others.

Therefore I have nothing against people that find strength in spirituality, nature etc.

The issues starts when people claim things about the reality of God and how one ought to live their lives and if they don't they will feel the consequences of it.

A terrorist probably find a lot of joy in their religion, in fact they find so much that blowing up others seems to be a decent choice. So if we are to simply ignore what these religions can make people do, because it gives them personal happiness and just stand by or fight back, we will never get anywhere. Im not only talking about terrorism as that is simply one result of religious beliefs, but you have all these ideas being planted in peoples heads about how you ought to do this and that. The amount of stories caused by these beliefs are not hard to find.

The mere fact that religious beliefs can cause people to doubt the absolute best scientific theories we have and fill kids head with none sense, is bad enough as it is. That you have people arguing that the Earth is flat, because they so desperately need to make the bible fit is insanity. And is much more harmful for people than people think. Not only for the individual which are fed wrong information, but also for the society as a whole. We need intelligent people, and don't misunderstand me, as if im saying that religious people can't be. That is not what I mean.
But the issues we as a species are facing isn't solved by superstition and spirituality, it requires knowledge about the reality in which we live, so we can find solutions.

And even though we can't all be Einsteins the very least we can do, is at least being able to understand the reason why science work, and it's solution is a far better starting point, than going around filling peoples head with random beliefs. We are not going to solve anything with that, if it gives a person a lot of personal satisfaction, that is perfectly fine. The moment it interfere or causes harm to others it is not.

The day and age we live in, is that of science, religion have had its chance and it failed miserably in trying to solve any issues. It simply doesn't have answers to anything, besides personal satisfaction for some people, so leave it to that and let science give it, its best shot. And we need intelligent people for that, not those that believe the Earth is flat or that blows up others.

So I wish it could be like you say, I honestly think that all atheists would prefer it to be like that, but the truth is that it just isn't.

 

[Spirit of Light]

I like your view on this and truly wished that it could be that simple.

I can obviously only speak for my self, and have said it a lot of times before, that I really don't care what people believe in, as long as it doesn't cause harm to others.

Therefore I have nothing against people that find strength in spirituality, nature etc.

The issues starts when people claim things about the reality of God and how one ought to live their lives and if they don't they will feel the consequences of it.

A terrorist probably find a lot of joy in their religion, in fact they find so much that blowing up others seems to be a decent choice. So if we are to simply ignore what these religions can make people do, because it gives them personal happiness and just stand by or fight back, we will never get anywhere. Im not only talking about terrorism as that is simply one result of religious beliefs, but you have all these ideas being planted in peoples heads about how you ought to do this and that. The amount of stories caused by these beliefs are not hard to find.

The mere fact that religious beliefs can cause people to doubt the absolute best scientific theories we have and fill kids head with none sense, is bad enough as it is. That you have people arguing that the Earth is flat, because they so desperately need to make the bible fit is insanity. And is much more harmful for people than people think. Not only for the individual which are fed wrong information, but also for the society as a whole. We need intelligent people, and don't misunderstand me, as saying that religious people can not be. That is not what I mean.
But the issues we as species are facing isn't solved by superstition and spirituality, it requires a knowledge about the reality in which we live, so we can find solutions.

And even though we can not all be Einsteins at least being able to understand the reason why science work and is the solution is, a far better starting point, than going around filling peoples head with random beliefs. We are not going to solve anything with that, if it gives a person a lot of personal satisfaction, that is perfectly fine. The moment it interfere or causes harm to others it is not.

The day and age we live in, is that of science, religion have had its chance and it failed miserably in trying to solve any issues. It simply doesn't have answers to anything, besides personal satisfaction for some people, so leave it to that and let science give it, its best shot. And we need intelligent people for that, not those that believe the Earth is flat or that blowing up others is the rest way.

So I wish it could be like you say, I honestly think that all atheists would prefer it to be like that, but the truth is that it just isn't.

When reading your post i like what you write This is a good question in my mind.
Can i return a question?

The way you see it, do you really think those terrorists who kill others are good Muslims?
The answer to this question in my mind would be, they are not even close to following the true teaching of Islam. Or at least not close to finding the truth they would find if they did cultivate their own mind and body, instead of showing hate toward others.

 

[sun rise]

What you say is true
But we can also think that they think the same as us, that what we believe is better than others. But is really better? or is that only because we feel our understanding must be better than theirs? When we found the path that fit us and we start to cultivate the teaching, we will experience that wow it is so good what the teaching says. I think everyone has it like this. and we want everyone else to feel what we feel. But. They already do feel what we feel, in their own choice of path. they think exactly the same as us, that they are right and we are wrong.
But both can be right. It is a personal path, personal cultivation from within our self. We feel this because of the teaching hits us deep in our soul. But that is the same they feel too.
So why not be happy for them Be a friend even they see the world in a different way.

I agree that's the ideal. I'm not there yet.

 

[Nimos]

The way you see it, do you really think those terrorists who kill others are good Muslims?
The answer to this question in my mind would be, they are not even close to following the true teaching of Islam. Or at least not close to finding the truth they would find if they did cultivate their own mind and body, instead of showing hate toward others.

Honestly it doesn't matter what I think. In their head they are the only true muslims, those you and I would call nice muslims or what to say, are not true muslims in their eyes. Hence the fact that they blow them up as well, they don't care, because they are right and everyone else is wrong, because that is how they have chosen to understand the Quran. Trust me, Christians could do the exact same thing using the bible. There are lots of verses in it that could justify the killing of none Christians.

The whole issue with religion is that no one or anyone can interpret it as they see fit. There is no true right or wrong, because you have nothing to test it against and no one to ask for the right answer. So telling others how they ought to live, is the exact problem, its not the religious texts that tell people how to live, its some random person's interpretation and understanding of what they believe is correct and how they think people ought to live, because its their personal preference. But anyone should quickly be able to figure out, that such person have no clue what is right or wrong, because again there is no one to ask about it!!

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

My idea of my own good spiritual path, is one that holds up well to scrutiny, rather than dodges it.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

I think we all could be better at cheering and inspire those who are on a spiritual path, instead of trying to debunk them or telling them how wrong they are. When someone finds a path/teaching that truly reach deep into their soul, and they do their best to become better, some of the worst experience for them then is when others trying to tell them, you are wrong, or your belief is false, your religion is evil and so on. Maybe you think that of other's beliefs or religion, but why do your "negativity toward their belief" have to be told so to derail their path? How about if you do not believe, ask good questions to those who do believe, like. What does your religion do to your daily life, how do you understand this "topic" or just tell them it is good they found a path that can lead them to become even better as human beings.

I am neutral with respect to "cheering on" anyone for their "spiritual path." That just isn't something I would look to actively do.

And when I start in on someone for their beliefs, it is almost only ever when they display some form of what I consider to be backward thinking that has them stuck believing something that is demonstrably not true, or is something I see to actively be a harm to societal influence.

My belief or understanding of the spiritual teaching I cultivate is for me to understand, so to make it possible for me to gain inner wisdom, for those who do not follow the same spiritual teaching it should not matter what I do in the cultivation, except for if you are interested in learning the same teaching too. then it is good to ask a question for learning, but no need to ask questions for tearing down something you have not yet understood why is told the way it is told.

If you truly feel this way, then you must expect that they simply do not understand. Therefore I feel (certainly only my opinion) you should be attempting (like I do) to help them to understand your perspective on it. If you do not feel that you have good enough grounds upon which to withstand the barrage of their statements/questions, then I believe that most likely either you are merely ill-prepared and need to study further, or the position you are taking is simply not defensible. In the latter scenario, the position should likely be discarded for a better, more defensible one.

Asking questions is good, as long the intention is good.

I don't believe the situation to be this cut and dry at all.

Asking questions for tearing someone down, is just an act of evil.

I don't believe this to be necessarily true either. I know it sounds nice, and sounds politically shrewd, however there are obvious things that we have all likely partaken of that raise questions with the express intent to "tear someone down." For example satire. That is basically the whole point of satire - people laugh it up all the time at satirical content, and don't think for a second that the creator intended "evil."

 

[Spirit of Light]

I am neutral with respect to "cheering on" anyone for their "spiritual path." That just isn't something I would look to actively do.

And when I start in on someone for their beliefs, it is almost only ever when they display some form of what I consider to be backward thinking that has them stuck believing something that is demonstrably not true, or is something I see to actively be a harm to societal influence.

If you truly feel this way, then you must expect that they simply do not understand. Therefore I feel (certainly only my opinion) you should be attempting (like I do) to help them to understand your perspective on it. If you do not feel that you have good enough grounds upon which to withstand the barrage of their statements/questions, then I believe that most likely either you are merely ill-prepared and need to study further, or the position you are taking is simply not defensible. In the latter scenario, the position should likely be discarded for a better, more defensible one.

I don't believe the situation to be this cut and dry at all.
I don't believe this to be necessarily true either. I know it sounds nice, and sounds politically shrewd, however there are obvious things that we have all likely partaken of that raise questions with the express intent to "tear someone down." For example satire. That is basically the whole point of satire - people laugh it up all the time at satirical content, and don't think for a second that the creator intended "evil."

The reason I said about my own cultivation within Falun Gong is that it is personal cultivation, and for someone who either has not read the teaching or cultivate it themself, it is more or less impossible to understand why the teaching is as it is. It is made spiffily toward consummation within this form. And then to discuss it with someone who doesn't believe or do not understand the basics is mostly not fruitful for the listener or for me as a practitioner.
It is not because others can not understand it, but then they have to dedicate their lives to cultivating only that teaching. And it looks like many are study all sorts of spiritual teachings and mix it.
This is a reason you see me more or less never speak about other religions these days.

Another reason why discussion, especially with non-believers, is getting less interesting is that I no longer feel a need of having to prove my understanding of path is the right one for everyone, or for the non-believer who wants physical proof of it. It is the right path for me, but not necessary for you

 

[Twilight Hue]

I think we all could be better at cheering and inspire those who are on a spiritual path, instead of trying to debunk them or telling them how wrong they are. When someone finds a path/teaching that truly reach deep into their soul, and they do their best to become better, some of the worst experience for them then is when others trying to tell them, you are wrong, or your belief is false, your religion is evil and so on. Maybe you think that of other's beliefs or religion, but why do your "negativity toward their belief" have to be told so to derail their path? How about if you do not believe, ask good questions to those who do believe, like. What does your religion do to your daily life, how do you understand this "topic" or just tell them it is good they found a path that can lead them to become even better as human beings.

My belief or understanding of the spiritual teaching I cultivate is for me to understand, so to make it possible for me to gain inner wisdom, for those who do not follow the same spiritual teaching it should not matter what I do in the cultivation, except for if you are interested in learning the same teaching too. then it is good to ask a question for learning, but no need to ask questions for tearing down something you have not yet understood why is told the way it is told.

Asking questions is good, as long the intention is good.
Asking questions for tearing someone down, is just an act of evil.

I don't think one ought to disrespect a person for believing in something, however that's said, you should call out any religion for what it is in terms of what is being claimed and touted as being, with a proper and sometimes justifiable counter.

People have just as much right to denounce any religion as much as those who possess the right to prop it up.

Bushido is a lot of fun to do when making an argument, like giving ribbings and jabs here and there as debating warriors battle it out. It makes things interesting, and it garners an audience which consequently helps forum viewership. Informative and entertaining if I might go so far.

Still there are formal debates, much more boring for the adrenaline junkies I might add, to which the ad hominems and such can be basically eliminated through a set of accepted rules and just a polite exchange exists as various points and counterpoints are made.

I would think people who would like to make an intelligent exchange without the frills of bells and whistles would appreciate that. A bit like a chess match with an audience, versus a stadium with an audience for a sporting event. Both can be immensely exciting, but definitely suitable for different personalities.

If you were to go that route of pleasant exchanges, I'm pretty sure that the viewership of a chess match would be no contest in comparison to a stadium event.
That's pretty much applicable for any topic as evidenced by the many political debates out there that are clearly more conducent of a sporting event rather than a serious discussion of point and counterpoint on various topics involving in politics as an example.

I wouldn't mind as a suggestion, a formal area for debating if there are enough people who would like to see that of which I suspect isn't likely, given that the demographics of most people here are obviously not looking for a completely formal setting.

Ad revenue is at stake here as well. But that could be for another thread. *Grin*

 

[shivsomashekhar]

I think we all could be better at cheering and inspire those who are on a spiritual path, instead of trying to debunk them or telling them how wrong they are. When someone finds a path/teaching that truly reach deep into their soul, and they do their best to become better, some of the worst experience for them then is when others trying to tell them, you are wrong, or your belief is false, your religion is evil and so on. Maybe you think that of other's beliefs or religion, but why do your "negativity toward their belief" have to be told so to derail their path? How about if you do not believe, ask good questions to those who do believe, like. What does your religion do to your daily life, how do you understand this "topic" or just tell them it is good they found a path that can lead them to become even better as human beings.

My belief or understanding of the spiritual teaching I cultivate is for me to understand, so to make it possible for me to gain inner wisdom, for those who do not follow the same spiritual teaching it should not matter what I do in the cultivation, except for if you are interested in learning the same teaching too. then it is good to ask a question for learning, but no need to ask questions for tearing down something you have not yet understood why is told the way it is told.

Asking questions is good, as long the intention is good.
Asking questions for tearing someone down, is just an act of evil.

Haven't you started multiple threads on the same exact topic? What is the purpose of duplicating the same topic over and over?

 

[Spirit of Light]

I don't think one ought to disrespect a person for believing in something, however that's said, you should call out any religion for what it is in terms of what is being claimed and touted as being, with a proper and sometimes justifiable counter.

People have just as much right to denounce any religion as much as those who possess the right to prop it up.

Bushido is a lot of fun to do when making an argument, like giving ribbings and jabs here and there as debating warriors battle it out. It makes things interesting, and it garners an audience which consequently helps forum viewership. Informative and entertaining if I might go so far.

Still there are formal debates, much more boring for the adrenaline junkies I might add, to which the ad hominems and such can be basically eliminated through a set of accepted rules and just a polite exchange exists as various points and counterpoints are made.

I would think people who would like to make an intelligent exchange without the frills of bells and whistles would appreciate that. A bit like a chess match with an audience, versus a stadium with an audience for a sporting event. Both can be immensely exciting, but definitely suitable for different personalities.

If you were to go that route of pleasant exchanges, I'm pretty sure that the viewership of a chess match would be no contest in comparison to a stadium event.
That's pretty much applicable for any topic as evidenced by the many political debates out there that are clearly more conducent of a sporting event rather than a serious discussion of point and counterpoint on various topics involving in politics as an example.

I wouldn't mind as a suggestion, a formal area for debating if there are enough people who would like to see that of which I suspect isn't likely, given that the demographics of most people here are obviously not looking for a completely formal setting.

Ad revenue is at stake here as well. But that could be for another thread. *Grin*

Easy question.
Why do you have to push down religions or cultivation paths just because you denounce them? Your denouncement is not the problem, you are free to do so. But why speak badly about what you do not believe in or follow your self? Why not just let those who follow a religion or spiritual path, to realize the truth for themself. ?

 

[Twilight Hue]

Easy question.
Why do you have to push down religions or cultivation paths just because you denounce them? Your denouncement is not the problem, you are free to do so. But why speak badly about what you do not believe in or follow your self? Why not just let those who follow a religion or spiritual path, to realize the truth for themself. ?

Letting somebody learn through the School of hard knocks?

I have no issue with that, but if you let people just sit around to arbitrarily claim one thing while the opposition is discouraged to make a counterpoint just because it sounds degenerating or what not, I would haphazard to say we would all still be living in the Stone age!

There are plenty of modern-day examples where that is still the case! *Yikes*

 

[Spirit of Light]

Letting somebody learn through the School of hard knocks?

I have no issue with that, but if you let people just sit around to arbitrarily claim one thing while the opposition is discouraged to make a counterpoint just because it sounds degenerating or what not, I would haphazard to say we would all still be living in the Stone age!

There are plenty of modern-day examples where that is still the case! *Yikes*

Spiritually I think we are in a very stone age area now in 2020 very different from 2000-2500 years ago when they actually were a lot more advanced in spiritual practice then we are today.