No overwhelming historical proof: Why I doubt Jesus

[JustWondering]

Where does it say God hates homosexuals, rather Scripture teaches God hates fornication ( porneia )
So, it is 'homosexual acts' that fall under the category of fornication ( porneia )
We all can have wrong leanings but that does Not mean we have to act upon them.
So, anyone single is to avoid fornication ( porneia )

There is no such thing as freewill as YOU would define it. I find it amusing that some theists think that everything is a choice and you can simply just choose not to do something. We are biological beings and whether you like it or not, our genetically instilled instincts and body chemistry often easily trump learned behaviors and social expectations. This is what I meant earlier by religions like yours ignoring human nature. Your religion expects us all to be perfectly disciplined, mindlessly obedient, robots. Your gods unrealistic/impossible expectations are evidence enough that the bible is not inspired by a higher being with a higher understanding of how things work in the universe, let alone on this earth. Its just ancient made up superstitious stories used to control people.

 

[JustWondering]

Yes, men speaking on God's behalf have taught both good and evil.
That does Not make the Bible as wrong, but makes the wrong teachers as wrong.
False shepherds (clergy) teach the evil so as to fleece the flock of God - Acts of the Apostles 20:29-30
Jesus' recorded words forewarn us that MANY would come ' in his name ' but prove false - Matthew 7:21-23
So, we should Not be surprised that there are men speaking falsely on God's behalf.
They often teach church traditions, or church customs, as being Scripture when Not found in Scripture.

What evidence and line of reasoning brought you to the conclusion that the bible should be taken seriously? Why isn't Hinduism, Shintoism, or Scientology the way to go? Did you give any other religion a chance or did you begin from a biased position when determining your mythological worldview? Where you raised in a household that was religious, did you grow up in a society that was predominately Christian?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

The problem with religions like yours is that its standards for conduct and behavior are unrealistic and often times ignore/go against human nature. Your bible says homosexuality is bad, but why would it exist at all if your god doesn't like it? Sex itself in your religion is often demonized. If god didn't want us to have sex just because it was fun why didn't he give us a different reproduction system to avoid that issue altogether? From a purely logical standpoint, if your god were real, all of our issues are the fault of his incompetence/unreasonableness. He creates us with the capacity to get angry but gets angry himself at us if we indulge our anger. Logically I find the existence of your biblical god very unlikely. If it does exist, it is the biggest hypocrite in creation.

What is unrealistic about having self-sacrificing love for others ?
Sure, we can't live up to that perfectly but we can have righteous leanings even now.
Fornication is what is unreasonable in Scripture. Within scriptural marriage sex is reasonable and fun, etc.
God is slow to anger - Jonah 4:2. God wants No one to perish ( be destroyed ) - 2 Peter 3:9
There was No issue in the Garden of Eden. If Adam had Not broken God's Law we would all be born with healthy human perfection.
To me, the situation we have today is temporary. According to Scripture, the real life is ahead of us when there will be healing for earth's nations - Revelation 22:2 - and mankind will have the reproductive system as originally intended.

Satan is the one who challenges all of us - Job 2:4-5 - to touch our flesh (physical) and we would Not serve God under adverse conditions.
Both Job and Jesus proved Satan a liar and so can we.

 

[JustWondering]

What is unrealistic about having self-sacrificing love for others ?
Sure, we can't live up to that perfectly but we can have righteous leanings even now.
Fornication is what is unreasonable in Scripture. Within scriptural marriage sex is reasonable and fun, etc.
God is slow to anger - Jonah 4:2. God wants No one to perish ( be destroyed ) - 2 Peter 3:9
There was No issue in the Garden of Eden. If Adam had Not broken God's Law we would all be born with healthy human perfection.
To me, the situation we have today is temporary. According to Scripture, the real life is ahead of us when there will be healing for earth's nations - Revelation 22:2 - and mankind will have the reproductive system as originally intended.

Satan is the one who challenges all of us - Job 2:4-5 - to touch our flesh (physical) and we would Not serve God under adverse conditions.
Both Job and Jesus proved Satan a liar and so can we.

Ah, the garden of Eden myth. So you believe the Sun came into existence after the earth formed, and the Sun was the only star in existence until after god created plants on earth. You believe that humanity started from just two people and one of them was created from the others rib? In Genesis 1:29 god tells man that every tree that bears fruit is there to do with as they please. Then god goes back on his word later and says that the tree of knowledge is off limits. It's all just ancient myth and stories man. Mindlessly quoting your myths to an atheist isn't going to accomplish anything. Your god is as real to me as Harry Potter. They're both portrayed in books and movies but are obviously fictional characters.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

What evidence and line of reasoning brought you to the conclusion that the bible should be taken seriously? Why isn't Hinduism, Shintoism, or Scientology the way to go? Did you give any other religion a chance or did you begin from a biased position when determining your mythological worldview? Where you raised in a household that was religious, did you grow up in a society that was predominately Christian?

Jesus' teachings are in harmony with the rest of Scripture.
So, when I heard Jesus' words throughout my life that meant more to me than any other.
People out of all countries or nations of Earth have become Christian whether raised under its influence or not.
Throughout the Bible it has corresponding cross-reference verses and passages showing the internal harmony among the many Bible writers.
Most people want peace, so shouldn't there be more Peace on Earth ?
To me, the teachings of Jesus explain not only why there is Not more Peace on Earth but also the coming solution.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Ah, the garden of Eden myth. So you believe the Sun came into existence after the earth formed, and the Sun was the only star in existence until after god created plants on earth. You believe that humanity started from just two people and one of them was created from the others rib? In Genesis 1:29 god tells man that every tree that bears fruit is there to do with as they please. Then god goes back on his word later and says that the tree of knowledge is off limits. It's all just ancient myth and stories man. Mindlessly quoting your myths to an atheist isn't going to accomplish anything. Your god is as real to me as Harry Potter. They're both portrayed in books and movies but are obviously fictional characters.

Where does the Bible say the sun came into existence after the Earth was formed !

They were warned in advance to avoid God's tree because breaking God's law meant the death penalty.

 

[JustWondering]

Jesus' teachings are in harmony with the rest of Scripture.
So, when I heard Jesus' words throughout my life that meant more to me than any other.
People out of all countries or nations of Earth have become Christian whether raised under its influence or not.
Throughout the Bible it has corresponding cross-reference verses and passages showing the internal harmony among the many Bible writers.
Most people want peace, so shouldn't there be more Peace on Earth ?
To me, the teachings of Jesus explain not only why there is Not more Peace on Earth but also the coming solution.

So you were raised Christian and never questioned it. Which means that if you were raised within a family/society that followed Hinduism or Scientology, you'd be a Hindu or Scientologist and never question it. You didn't come to your beliefs through evidence and reason, you were raised with them. How's the old saying go? You can't reason someone out of something they weren't reasoned into?

The Harry Potter books are in harmony with each other as well. What's your point?

 

[JustWondering]

Where does the Bible say the sun came into existence after the Earth was formed !

First page of the bible, in genesis. Have you actually read the bible cover to cover or do you just cherry pick from it?

They were warned in advance to avoid God's tree because breaking God's law meant the death penalty.

Harry Potter has a scar on his forehead from when Voldemort tried to kill him as a child.

 

[oldbadger]

How were the Romans kept out?

I don't think that they were. I think that the Romans did pretty much anything that they wanted to.
Tom

Hello again......
The Romans didn't try to come in! They would have gotten into the most dreadful trouble, from the Syrian Legate who controlled Palestine for and on behalf of the Emperor.

From 4BC (after King Herod's death) until 6AD his surviving three sons (he killed most his children which might have prompted the 'Herod killed the kiddies' story.) took over control of all Palestine. Apart from the odd observer or diplomat reporting to the Legate there would not have been any ***Romans at all. ***

Philip controlled the North, Antipas Galilee and Perea, and Archelaus controlled Idumea, Judea and Samaria.
But Archelaus was a complety incompetent fool, and Tribute returns to Rome must have been in a mess, so the Emperor had Archelaus removed from office and retired him to Rome, and sent in a Prefect to control those three provinces only, under the orders of the Syrian Legate. In 6AD the Syrian Legate Quirinius (or Cyrenius) ordered a taxation census on those three provinces only, so that they could be taxed properly (which probably got bent into the 'report to family city story?). We know this included a special census on Temple returns because after one (or more) major feasts the kidneys of all sacrificial lambs were kept and counted so that a suitable levy from sacrifices would be sent to Rome. The Prefect only controlled Archelaus's three provoinces.

Hence, Jewish Tetrarchs controlled about half and the Roman Prefect controlled the rest.

***
The only exception to the No Romans in Galilee claim was in 4BC when the city of Sepphoris, about 4.5 miles North(ish) of Nazareth was taken by a bandit Judas BarEzekiah and who held out, hoping to keep it. The Syrian Legate was forced to send Legions and Cohorts to take the place back. So, in 4BC there were Romans in Galilee, but after seizing the city, enslaving every woman and child found within (to pay for expenses) and executing every adult male, they left the place flor Antipas to control and rebuild.

 

[CG Didymus]

Where does the Bible say the sun came into existence after the Earth was formed !

They were warned in advance to avoid God's tree because breaking God's law meant the death penalty.

When did this story even get written? Or, I suppose God dictated exactly what happened to Moses and he wrote it down. As if they and other cultures didn't have their creation stories and concepts of a God and gods.

But, if this particular God of the Hebrews is the one true God and knows all and created all, then why would He set Adam and Eve up for the fall? Why put a fruit tree with nice tasting fruit on it, then tell them not to touch it? How could a piece of fruit impart knowledge of good and evil? Why God have a crafty serpent, who most Christians believe is Satan in disguise, tempt them and trick them into eating it? He knew what would happen. He knew Eve wasn't strong enough to say "no". And then, did they die? No, God cursed them. Nothing about death, just extreme pain for Eve in having kids and Adam having to work hard to make things grow.

And then, God gets worried that they might eat of the other tree and live forever? So He kicks them out of the garden? Why didn't he put His cherubim and a fence around the trees in the first place? If Satan was the serpent, does that mean Satan slithers on his belly? Or, it's all spiritual stories of an ancient people, like the stories of all the other people around them. Why does it have to be literal? I know, you don't have to answer it. It's because the Bible, all of it, is God's Word and is the absolute truth. But really, everything in Genesis, that is how you really believe it all happened? And yes, the Earth was formed, plants grew one day before the Sun was created. It's all on page one. You can't miss it.

 

[CG Didymus]

With regards to the battle if Jericho this is al we have officially ..

We have no way of substantiating the stories of the Old Testament other than references to them in our own teachings, so we cannot say exactly what happened at the battle of Jericho. Shoghi Effendi

We know the Israelites had many enemies who would enslave them once again if they could. The Canaanites did believe in slavery and out there in the desert the Jews were still fighting for their freedom and still had to win battles in order to achieve independence from slavery.

Muhammad and His followers were in a similar situation of fighting or facing genocide.

Both Moses and Muhammad fought out of need.

God helped the Hebrews kill the people in the "Promised Land". But I have another question for you. Do you believe an angel spoke to Mary about her being "with child" from the Holy Spirit? Do you believe an angel spoke to Mohammad? And, do you believe an angel spoke with Joseph Smith? Do Baha'is even have the same concept of angels as these other religions? And finally, if there are good angels, do Bahai's believe there are fallen angels? Thanks.

 

[Kartari]

Hi Luis,

I don't think we have any evidence whatsoever of a historical Jesus. Quite on the contrary.

The birth is all but stated outright as a fictional event, complete with stars on the sky that somehow mark specific places over land, mythical parenting and prophecies.

He vanishes from sight entirely for more than twenty years and yet the narrative simply knows somehow that it is the same person.

And then he begins to work literal miracles and supposedly ressurrects and is ascended to the heavens after his death.

Really?

No, I never saw any reason to think of Jesus as having even a core of a historical person. I'm puzzled as to why anyone would.

It does seem very improbable and highly embellished, to say the least. Yet it is not entirely implausible that one or more real persons served as muses, so to speak, for those who wrote stories about a man named Jesus.

To me, though, the historical possibility of an actual person was never the most problematic issue. The supernatural claims themselves are. All we have to "prove" them is a collection of ancient stories written about him. We have as much evidence for the existence of Odysseus and the Greek gods thanks to Homer, yet I've yet to find a Christian who believes in both Jesus as God and the Greek gods too.

 

[loverofhumanity]

God helped the Hebrews kill the people in the "Promised Land". But I have another question for you. Do you believe an angel spoke to Mary about her being "with child" from the Holy Spirit? Do you believe an angel spoke to Mohammad? And, do you believe an angel spoke with Joseph Smith? Do Baha'is even have the same concept of angels as these other religions? And finally, if there are good angels, do Bahai's believe there are fallen angels? Thanks.

Hi CG,

We believe Their experience was real but it was in the form a vision not a physical thing. Baha'u'llah said He saw a 'Maiden' yet He was the only One to see Her so these visions are real but they are only seen by the Holy Ones and the Prophets and Messengers and rarely by those around them. For instance the 'Dove' that appeared above Christ was a metaphor not a real dove.

Another term given for angels in Baha'i literature is a 'heavenly person' someone who is pure and very virtuous. So just like we can heavenly people we can also have people who were once virtuous and upright become corrupt and evil and so one could say they are a fallen angel.

With regards wars of the Old Testament era. This is how we view it.

“We have no way of substantiating the stories of the Old Testament other than references to them in our teachings, so we cannot say exactly what happened at the battle of Jericho.”

Excerpt From: Hornby. “Lights of Guidance.”


The Israelites had been attacked previously by the Amalek and their retaliation was not unprovoked aggression. This is what you are referring to:


Deuteronomy 25:17-19

17 “Remember what Amalek did to you along the way when you came out from Egypt, 18 how he met you along the way and attacked among you all the stragglers at your rear when you were faint and weary; and he did not fear God. 19 Therefore it shall come about when the Lord your God has given you rest from all your surrounding enemies, in the land which the Lord your God gives you as an inheritance to possess, you shall blot out the memory of Amalek from under heaven; you must not forget.

 

[Hawkins]

Is this a joke of some kind.

Why don't you just how us which human figure who lived 2000 years ago is supported by
overwhelming historical proof?

 

[sunray]

We know so much; there are many contradictions; so at sometime, we've got to simply get a grasp of the basics like: Does a spiritual dimension exist, and if so how can we find it, and what will be there? Did the spiritual dimension exist before the world/ universe came into being?

 

[sunray]

If you know there is a spiritual dimension then the belief in life after death is possible,' our spirit' can live in the spiritual dimension after death of the phisical body. Many of the questions one asks now, will become unnecessary, however many questions if not all questions will be easier to understand, as is said there the truth will save you. So don't stop asking questions, but in the back of one's mind, patience is needed. There will be an answer !

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Is this a joke of some kind.

Why don't you just how us which human figure who lived 2000 years ago is supported by
overwhelming historical proof?

http://www.ndtv.com/hyderabad-news/...ear-old-mummy-with-advance-techniques-1400199
Those people in the link existed 2000 years ago.

http://www.dailyrepublican.com/mummiesinsilk.html
Those people existed 2000 years ago.

 

[roger1440]

The greatness of the Bible and Jesus is Their spiritual reality. This is only understood by the spiritually minded. Materialists have no share in this bounty.

Son of God

This is a misinterpretation by Christians which the Quran corrects. It does not contradict the Bible.

Quran

Sura 19:34

35. It is not for God to have a child-glory be to Him. To have anything done, He says to it, "Be," and it becomes.

The Bible

In the Bible it says 'God is Spirit' so how can Jesus be the physical son God?

John 4:24
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

The Son of God is a spiritual title in the Bible not applying only to Jesus.........

Romans 8:14
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

John 1:12
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

1 John 3:1

Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

1 John 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Both the Quran and the Bible are in agreement that Christ is a spiritual reality born of the Holy Spirit.

Please dumb it down a little for me. What does "spiritually minded" mean?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Please dumb it down a little for me. What does "spiritually minded" mean?

The Webster definition is:

SPIRITUAL-MINDED Spir"it*u*al-mind`ed, a. Defn: Having the mind set on spiritual things, or filled with holy desires and affections. Spir"it*u*al-mind`ed*ness,

Godly, virtuous also.

 

[roger1440]

The Webster definition is:

SPIRITUAL-MINDED Spir"it*u*al-mind`ed, a. Defn: Having the mind set on spiritual things, or filled with holy desires and affections. Spir"it*u*al-mind`ed*ness,

Godly, virtuous also.

You can't use the same word to define a word.