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No RELIGION = No MORALS?

Atheologian

John Frum
From early on man came to know God not merely as a bountiful provider but a God holding to definite standards in both conduct and practice. God's creative works were 'very good' why? Wasn't it because of meeting God's perfect standards in all aspects?

Without standards how could one judge with any degree of accuracy what is right or wrong? Man's accomplishments are pale in comparison with standards in nature. The universe, constellations, orbits of planets, cell structure, etc., are astounding in standardization as found in nature. Such standardization makes possible to recognize and classify plants, fish, birds, etc. in minute detail. Standardization in the human body lets physicians know where to look.

From the beginning man saw stability in day and night, gravity, etc. so doesn't it stand to reason that man also learned the moral standard for marriage from early on in what Genesis (2:4) says?

If the Creator is not the source of moral law, then who is?
Isn't God the law giver of the standard for the universe?
Man as creation then is subject to not only physical laws but capable of reasoning spiritually as well as morally. Isn't God the source of spirituality?
The physical laws can not be broken, and one that goes against or contrary to physical laws experiences immediate reactions. Likewise, moral laws can not be circumvented or violated with impunity. Although breaking natural or moral laws might not bring immediate consequences, but one reaps what one sows.
Since God is Creator of all things, then how could he not also be the source of morals?


And how do you suppose God is moral? You obviously refer to the Judeo/Christian God, the same one that endorsed genocide, slavery, pedohilia, rape, torture and human sacrifice. How could your God be the source of ANY morals at all? Unless, of course, those things are morally sound to you.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
and religion has?

Good question and is right to the point. Religion has run amok proving itself as being false to God and Jesus.

When Jesus was talking to the religious leaders of his day he pronounced many 'woes' against them and the reasons why in the 23rd chapter of Matthew. Jesus blamed them for the bloodshed on earth (Matthew 23:35).
And Revelation (18:24) that was written decades after Jesus was in heaven, Jesus still pointed out that in such hypocritical religion was the blood of all slain on earth.

Jesus even foretold (Matt 7) that 'many' would come "In His Name" but prove false.

This did not make Jesus teachings wrong or false, but what is false are religious leaders, instead of listening to the words that came out of Jesus mouth, they put words in his mouth, so to speak, to further their own agenda.

For example: Who did Jesus ever send out to kill, 'In His Name"?
However, religious leaders have used the pulpit as a recruiting station so that parents will sacrifice their sons on the alter of war.

In short, the political 'kings' (Rev 17:2) or world wide rulers will finally turn on the world's religious 'queen' (Rev 18:7) or world's religious sector, and then there will be divine intervention into mankind's affairs. This will trigger what is written at Isaiah (11:4; Rev 19:11,15) that Jesus will take action by the words of his mouth to rid the earth of all badness and thus usher in peace on earth and peace to men of goodwill.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
And how do you suppose God is moral? You obviously refer to the Judeo/Christian God, the same one that endorsed genocide, slavery, pedohilia, rape, torture and human sacrifice. How could your God be the source of ANY morals at all? Unless, of course, those things are morally sound to you.

What part of the Mosaic law are you referring?
The Flood was an execution for justice for the righteous.
Slavery was not the same as the southern slavery in the U.S.
What do you know of the slavery in Scripture?
Where did God approve of pedophilia, rape, torture or told anyone to sacrifice humans? Deut 18:10.
 

Atheologian

John Frum
What part of the Mosaic law are you referring?
The Flood was an execution for justice for the righteous.
Slavery was not the same as the southern slavery in the U.S.
What do you know of the slavery in Scripture?
Where did God approve of pedophilia, rape, torture or told anyone to sacrifice humans? Deut 18:10.

The Flood was a natural cycle of the Earth's polar caps melting actaully, but that's beside the point. Slavery is slavery, the country it happens in doesn't matter. You need to go back and read judges.
Read about Abraham and the entire civilizations he wiped out, and how upset God was he didn't kill the animals too. I dont need to qoute a verse, read the whole chapter, it's hideous.
 

Atheologian

John Frum
1:1 Now after the death of Joshua it came to pass, that the children of Israel asked the LORD, saying, Who shall go up for us against the Canaanites first, to fight against them? 1:2 And the LORD said, Judah shall go up: behold, I have delivered the land into his hand.
1:3 And Judah said unto Simeon his brother, Come up with me into my lot, that we may fight against the Canaanites; and I likewise will go with thee into thy lot. So Simeon went with him.
1:4 And Judah went up; and the LORD delivered the Canaanites and the Perizzites into their hand: and they slew of them in Bezek ten thousand men.
1:5 And they found Adonibezek in Bezek: and they fought against him, and they slew the Canaanites and the Perizzites.
1:6 But Adonibezek fled; and they pursued after him, and caught him, and cut off his thumbs and his great toes.
1:7 And Adonibezek said, Threescore and ten kings, having their thumbs and their great toes cut off, gathered their meat under my table: as I have done, so God hath requited me. And they brought him to Jerusalem, and there he died.
1:8 Now the children of Judah had fought against Jerusalem, and had taken it, and smitten it with the edge of the sword, and set the city on fire.
1:9 And afterward the children of Judah went down to fight against the Canaanites, that dwelt in the mountain, and in the south, and in the valley.
1:10 And Judah went against the Canaanites that dwelt in Hebron: (now the name of Hebron before was Kirjatharba:) and they slew Sheshai, and Ahiman, and Talmai.
1:11 And from thence he went against the inhabitants of Debir: and the name of Debir before was Kirjathsepher: 1:12 And Caleb said, He that smiteth Kirjathsepher, and taketh it, to him will I give Achsah my daughter to wife.
1:13 And Othniel the son of Kenaz, Caleb's younger brother, took it: and he gave him Achsah his daughter to wife.
1:14 And it came to pass, when she came to him, that she moved him to ask of her father a field: and she lighted from off her ***; and Caleb said unto her, What wilt thou? 1:15 And she said unto him, Give me a blessing: for thou hast given me a south land; give me also springs of water. And Caleb gave her the upper springs and the nether springs.
1:16 And the children of the Kenite, Moses' father in law, went up out of the city of palm trees with the children of Judah into the wilderness of Judah, which lieth in the south of Arad; and they went and dwelt among the people.
1:17 And Judah went with Simeon his brother, and they slew the Canaanites that inhabited Zephath, and utterly destroyed it. And the name of the city was called Hormah.
1:18 Also Judah took Gaza with the coast thereof, and Askelon with the coast thereof, and Ekron with the coast thereof.
1:19 And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.
1:20 And they gave Hebron unto Caleb, as Moses said: and he expelled thence the three sons of Anak.
1:21 And the children of Benjamin did not drive out the Jebusites that inhabited Jerusalem; but the Jebusites dwell with the children of Benjamin in Jerusalem unto this day.
1:22 And the house of Joseph, they also went up against Bethel: and the LORD was with them.
1:23 And the house of Joseph sent to descry Bethel. (Now the name of the city before was Luz.) 1:24 And the spies saw a man come forth out of the city, and they said unto him, Shew us, we pray thee, the entrance into the city, and we will shew thee mercy.
1:25 And when he shewed them the entrance into the city, they smote the city with the edge of the sword; but they let go the man and all his family.
1:26 And the man went into the land of the Hittites, and built a city, and called the name thereof Luz: which is the name thereof unto this day.
1:27 Neither did Manasseh drive out the inhabitants of Bethshean and her towns, nor Taanach and her towns, nor the inhabitants of Dor and her towns, nor the inhabitants of Ibleam and her towns, nor the inhabitants of Megiddo and her towns: but the Canaanites would dwell in that land.
1:28 And it came to pass, when Israel was strong, that they put the Canaanites to tribute, and did not utterly drive them out.
1:29 Neither did Ephraim drive out the Canaanites that dwelt in Gezer; but the Canaanites dwelt in Gezer among them.
1:30 Neither did Zebulun drive out the inhabitants of Kitron, nor the inhabitants of Nahalol; but the Canaanites dwelt among them, and became tributaries.
1:31 Neither did Asher drive out the inhabitants of Accho, nor the inhabitants of Zidon, nor of Ahlab, nor of Achzib, nor of Helbah, nor of Aphik, nor of Rehob: 1:32 But the Asherites dwelt among the Canaanites, the inhabitants of the land: for they did not drive them out.
1:33 Neither did Naphtali drive out the inhabitants of Bethshemesh, nor the inhabitants of Bethanath; but he dwelt among the Canaanites, the inhabitants of the land: nevertheless the inhabitants of Bethshemesh and of Bethanath became tributaries unto them.
1:34 And the Amorites forced the children of Dan into the mountain: for they would not suffer them to come down to the valley: 1:35 But the Amorites would dwell in mount Heres in Aijalon, and in Shaalbim: yet the hand of the house of Joseph prevailed, so that they became tributaries.
 

Atheologian

John Frum
4:23 And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.
God gave power to the Pharaoh so that he could show off his own power by killing him. 9:15-16

"Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, ... nor his ***, nor any thing that is thy neighbor's." In the Bible, women are the property of men; they are his possessions -- like an ox or an ***. 20:17
 

Atheologian

John Frum
"Their daughters go a whoring after their gods, and make thy sons go a whoring after their gods." God always blames the women; it is they who "go a whoring" and then "make" the men "go a whoring." 34:16

God explains how to go about selling your daughter -- and what to do if she fails to please her new master. 21:7

God will kill the Egyptian children to show that he puts "a difference between the Egyptians and Israel." 11:7

After God has sufficiently hardened the Pharaoh's heart, he kills all the firstborn Egyptian children. When he was finished "there was not a house where there was not one dead." Finally, he runs out of little babies to kill, so he slaughters the firstborn cattle, too. 12:29
 

Atheologian

John Frum
Slavery is approved by God, and those who steal slaves must be killed. 21:16

21:20 And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.

notice how killing your slaves doesn't warrant the death penalty, like talking back to your parents?

I can go on... this is just Exodus. Wait till Judges, it gets really good.
 
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DavyCrocket2003

Well-Known Member
From early on man came to know God not merely as a bountiful provider but a God holding to definite standards in both conduct and practice. God's creative works were 'very good' why? Wasn't it because of meeting God's perfect standards in all aspects?

Without standards how could one judge with any degree of accuracy what is right or wrong? Man's accomplishments are pale in comparison with standards in nature. The universe, constellations, orbits of planets, cell structure, etc., are astounding in standardization as found in nature. Such standardization makes possible to recognize and classify plants, fish, birds, etc. in minute detail. Standardization in the human body lets physicians know where to look.

From the beginning man saw stability in day and night, gravity, etc. so doesn't it stand to reason that man also learned the moral standard for marriage from early on in what Genesis (2:4) says?

If the Creator is not the source of moral law, then who is?
Isn't God the law giver of the standard for the universe?
Man as creation then is subject to not only physical laws but capable of reasoning spiritually as well as morally. Isn't God the source of spirituality?
The physical laws can not be broken, and one that goes against or contrary to physical laws experiences immediate reactions. Likewise, moral laws can not be circumvented or violated with impunity. Although breaking natural or moral laws might not bring immediate consequences, but one reaps what one sows.
Since God is Creator of all things, then how could he not also be the source of morals?

I do not believe God's laws determine morality. I believe morality determines God's laws. Further, it is Gods attributes that give him power: love, mercy, justice, unchangeability, etc. It is his perfect manifestation of all good characteristics that makes God who he is with the power that he has. Thus he is bound to the laws of good and evil as much as we are. If he were to be anything different, if he were to deviate at all from the standard of perfect morality, he would cease to be God.
 

Atheologian

John Frum
I do not believe God's laws determine morality. I believe morality determines God's laws. Further, it is Gods attributes that give him power: love, mercy, justice, unchangeability, etc. It is his perfect manifestation of all good characteristics that makes God who he is with the power that he has. Thus he is bound to the laws of good and evil as much as we are. If he were to be anything different, if he were to deviate at all from the standard of perfect morality, he would cease to be God.

So what you are saying is we are in charge of God.

Kind of defeats the purpose of being god doesn't it?
 

DavyCrocket2003

Well-Known Member
Anyone who says The Judeo/Christian God is "moral" has not read the bible, or hasn't paid attention.

Or wasn't there in the time and cultural context it was originally given to understand its appropriate meaning before it was changed and translated numerous times.
 

Atheologian

John Frum
Or wasn't there in the time and cultural context it was originally given to understand its appropriate meaning before it was changed and translated numerous times.


That excuse doesn't work, and never has. Behead your child for disrespecting you can only mean one thing. The time and place don't matter.
You can't blame racism and bigotry on "cultural context"
 
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