No Trinity in the NT

[Unveiled Artist]

As you say, Christians receive the Holy Spirit to give them understanding and clarity by having communion with God, but this is nothing more than having a gut feeling, a conviction in one's heart of being sure about their faith or a certain question they need answers to; is this the right Church for me; am I understanding this passage correctly etc

So how does Islam understand the Holy Spirit:

He is the trusted Angel of Allah, swt (The Most Glorified, The Most High) sent to aid Prophets, and the really pious, so for example Jesus pbuh could have requested the Holy Spirit aid his Companions/Prophets in their mission after he was taken up.

The “Holy Spirit” (Rooh al-Qudus) is Jibreel (peace be upon him). Shaykh al-Shanqeeti said: “The words of Allaah (interpretation of the meaning), ‘and [We] supported him with Rooh al-Qudus’ [al-Baqarah 2:87] refer to Jibreel according to the most sound view. This is indicated by the words (interpretation of the meaning): ‘Which the trustworthy Rooh has brought down’ [al-Shu’ara’ 26:193] and ‘then We sent to her our Rooh’ [Maryam 19:17].”

Allaah said (interpretation of the meaning):

“O ‘Eesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)! Remember My Favour to you and to your mother when I supported you with Rooh ul Qudus [Jibreel (Gabriel)]…”

[al-Maa’idah 5:110]

Allaah supported the Messiah (peace be upon him) with Rooh al-Qudus as He mentions in this aayah. In al-Baqarah Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And We gave ‘Eesa (Jesus), the son of Maryam (Mary), clear signs and supported him with Rooh-ul-Qudus [Jibreel (Gabriel)]

[al-Baqarah 2:87]

“Those Messengers! We preferred some of them to others; to some of them Allâh spoke (directly); others He raised to degrees (of honour); and to ‘Eesa (Jesus), the son of Maryam (Mary), We gave clear proofs and evidences, and supported him with Rooh ul Qudus [Jibreel (Gabriel)]”

[al-Baqarah 2:253]

This is not limited only to the Messiah; others were also supported in this way. (The scholars) mentioned that Dawood said, “Do not stop supporting me with Rooh al-Qudus.” And our Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said to Hassaan ibn Thaabit, “O Allaah, support him with Rooh al-Qudus.” According to another report: “Rooh al-Qudus will be with you so long as you are defending His Prophet.” Both versions are narrated in al-Saheeh.

According to the Christians, the “Holy Spirit” dwelt in the Disciples, and according to them the “Holy Spirit” is something experienced by all of the Prophets. But Allaah says in al-Nahl (interpretation of the meaning):

“Say (O Muhammad) Rooh ul Qudus [Jibreel (Gabriel)] has brought it (the Qur’aan) down from your Lord with truth, that it may make firm and strengthen (the Faith of) those who believe, and as a guidance and glad tidings to those who have submitted (to Allaah as Muslims)”

[al-Nahl 16:102]

“Which the trustworthy Rooh [Jibreel (Gabriel)] has brought down

Upon your heart (O Muhammad)”

[al-Shu’ara’ 26:193]

“Whoever is an enemy to Jibreel (Gabriel) (let him die in his fury), for indeed he has brought it (this Qur’aan) down to your heart”

[al-Baqarah 2:97]

So it is clear that Rooh al-Qudus here refers to Jibreel… No one suggests that Rooh al-Qudus means the life of Allaah; nor is this indicated by the wording and this phrase is never used in that sense.

Who is the “Holy Spirit”? - islamqa.info

Umar ibn al-Khattab said: One day when we were with God's messenger, a man with very white clothing and very black hair came up to us. No mark of travel was visible on him, and none of us recognized him. Sitting down before the Prophet, leaning his knees against his, and placing his hands on his thighs, he said, "Tell me, Muhammad, about submission."

He replied, 'Submission means that you should bear witness that there is no god but God and that Muhammad is God's messenger, that you should perform the ritual prayer, pay the alms tax, fast during Ramadan, and make the pilgrimage to the House if you are able to go there."

The man said, "You have spoken the truth." We were surprised at his questioning him and then declaring that he had spoken the truth. He said "Now tell me about faith."

He replied, "Faith means that you have faith in God, His angels, His books, His messengers, and the Last Day, and that you have faith in the measuring out, both its good and its evil."

Remarking that he had spoken the truth, he then said, "Now tell me about doing what is beautiful."

He replied, "Doing what is beautiful means that you should worship God as if you see Him, for even if you do not see Him, He sees you."

Then the man said, "Tell me about the Hour"

The Prophet replied, "About that he who is questioned knows no more than the questioner."

The man said, "Then tell me about its marks."

He said, "The slave girl will give birth to her mistress, and you will see the barefoot, the naked, the destitute, and the shepherds vying with each other in building."

Then the man went away. After I had waited for a long time, the Prophet said to me, "Do you know who the questioner was, 'Umar?" I replied, "God and His messenger know best. "He said, "He was Gabriel. He came to teach you your religion. "

You decide which concept and understanding of the Holy Spirit makes more sense.

Interesting. Hm.

 

[Grandliseur]

What is the Trinity?

So ...

The doctrine of the Trinity is incoherent. The church agrees that it's incoherent ('is a mystery').

Jesus (to his credit) gives it not the slightest support.

But despite all that, experience shows that those who’ve grown up with, find it hard to let go.
.

We're all working with the same software. Atheist to Buddhist, Shintoist to Ancestor worshiper, Christian denominations all, including the two off in the left field, the LDS and the JWs. Everyone is stuck in their social groups, the support they get from their group, none is willing to admit that this or that is wrong and needs changing, updating. Some church groups become hateful even toward other Christians just because they may be YECs and the others OECs. If you then talk about the gulf between the Trinitarians and the non-Trinitarians, it cannot be surmounted. The JWs become hateful against all who leave them for any reason - shunning them and causing great harm at times. It matters not what Biblical reasons anyone may have for leaving, but, some among them are not quite this bad.

It is good then that Jesus told us that we shall be judged from our works for our ability to see the rafter in our own eyes is vanishing small.

 

[ronandcarol]

What is the Trinity?

So ...
The doctrine of the Trinity is incoherent. The church agrees that it's incoherent ('is a mystery').
Jesus (to his credit) gives it not the slightest support.
But despite all that, experience shows that those who’ve grown up with, find it hard to let go.
.

You stated in many verses above that Jesus and God the Father are two, but Jesus Himself pointed out the third person in the trinity when He ascended to Heaven. He is the Helper that will come to be within all Christians. SO lets do the math, God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. That is three, which is commonly called the Trinity.
ronandcarol

 

[blü 2]

The first witness of God's servants and many of God's chosen believers were killed by the religious pagans who started the Roman Catholic Church and the governing body called the Papal, or Vatican.

For a well-researched alternative view, see Robin Lane Fox's Christians and Pagans.

Christianity flourished after these pagans began stealing the words from God's servants who were preaching the gospel of God.

Christianity flourished because Constantine put it in the center of Roman politics, and opened up the Empire for it. (No wonder Luther was a German ─ the German states were never part of the old Roman Empire.)

 

[eldios]

For a well-researched alternative view, see Robin Lane Fox's Christians and Pagans.



Christianity flourished because Constantine put it in the center of Roman politics, and opened up the Empire for it. (No wonder Luther was a German ─ the German states were never part of the old Roman Empire.)

I don't need to read some pagan's writings about other pagans. I was used by God to testify to the knowledge called Christ to learn how all religions were formed in the minds of pagans.

 

[blü 2]

You stated in many verses above that Jesus and God the Father are two, but Jesus Himself pointed out the third person in the trinity when He ascended to Heaven. He is the Helper that will come to be within all Christians. SO lets do the math, God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. That is three, which is commonly called the Trinity.
ronandcarol

In the doctrine of the Trinity (set out in the OP) Jesus is God and the Holy Ghost is God and Yahweh is God, yet there's only one god in all that, and none of the three parties is either of the others.

In that lies the incoherence that the authorities I mention acknowledge, if it weren't self-evidence anyway, and in Jesus' words as quoted lies the authoritative view that Jesus is not God,

 

[blü 2]

Grandliseur

My point here is the theology of the Trinity, since it's such a mess.

If people want a god who's triune regardless of logic and scripture, I can only say, Enjoy!
.

 

[blü 2]

I don't need to read some pagan's writings about other pagans.

Hmm. Is prejudgment always wise? He's a reputable writer and his book is interesting and informative.

But of course it's a matter for you.

I was used by God to testify to the knowledge called Christ to learn how all religions were formed in the minds of pagans.

And what did he tell you about the theology of the Trinity?
.

 

[Skwim]

What is the Trinity?

If this incoherence hasn’t already struck you, you might gain illuminating confusion from the diagram on Wikipedia’s page ‘Trinity’ (the sixth image).

Just a note on The "Shield of the Trinity" here, which I see as useless as any other attempt that tries to explain the trinity. Consider:

By their bidirectional construction (no specific direction is indicated) each notation, "Is Not," is supposed operate both ways: "The Holy Spirit" is not the Son, and the Son is not the Holy spirit. This establishes the nature of the such notations in the figure: they are bidirectional. Now take a look at the other three notations, which say "is." The meaning indicating that The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit fully make up God.

According to Trinitarian doctrine, God exists as a construction of three persons, but is one being, having a single divine nature. However, the Shield of the Trinity also indicates that God is fully The Father, is fully The Son, and is fully The Holy Spirit.
AND, being fully The Father, for example, god would necessarily be so to the exclusion of being fully The Son, and is fully The Holy Spirit---a bucket can't be fully green beans, fully coal, and fully water at the same time.

Maybe I've missed something here, but as I see it the Shield of the Trinity fails big time.

.

​

 

[blü 2]

Skwim

Yup, you've nailed it. They said it was incoherent and they're right. You say it's incoherent and you're right.

No wonder Jesus is at pains to say it isn't so.
.

 

[Shadow Link]

[humbly speaking]
Wisdom gives birth unto Truth revealed by its own Confirmation.

 

[blü 2]

Muslim-UK

So how does Islam understand the Holy Spirit:

He is the trusted Angel of Allah

Interesting. As I understand it, the 'ruach' or breath of God in the Tanakh is a manifestation of Yahweh himself, so not a separate being. (Jewish readers here will of course know more about that than I do.)

Whereas in Christianity, the Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost is expressly distinct (and as such the third 'person' of the Trinity). But it (is 'it' the pronoun?) isn't considered to belong to any class of heavenly beings such as angels; its status is unique.

There appears to be a linguistic link between Hebrew 'ruach' and your Arabic word 'Rooh’, both being Semitic languages. Is that right?
.

 

[blü 2]

[humbly speaking]
Wisdom gives birth unto Truth revealed by its own Confirmation.

I generally think of 'true' as meaning 'conforming with reality'.

 

[Muslim-UK]

Interesting. As I understand it, the 'ruach' or breath of God in the Tanakh is a manifestation of Yahweh himself, so not a separate being. (Jewish readers here will of course know more about that than I do.)

Consider the following verses:

Exodus 23:20-22
20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee
into the place which I have prepared.

21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your
transgressions: for my name is in him.

22 But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an
enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.

Similarly it was a Angel that appeared to Moses pbuh in the burning bush, and he fully understood it was God, thus turned his face away.

Exodus 3:
1 Now Moses kept the flock of Jethro his father in law, the priest of Midian: and he led the flock to the backside of the desert, and came to the mountain of God, even to Horeb.

2 And the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.

4 And when the Lord saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.

Angels represent God as His trusted Messengers.

Whereas in Christianity, the Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost is expressly distinct (and as such the third 'person' of the Trinity). But it (is 'it' the pronoun?) isn't considered to belong to any class of heavenly beings such as angels; its status is unique.

This is what they believe, and elevate this Angel to be God from God. Neither the Angel or Jesus pbut will aid them when they meet their Lord.

There appears to be a linguistic link between Hebrew 'ruach' and your Arabic word 'Rooh’, both being Semitic languages. Is that right?
.

Yes that's right, both languages share many similarities and root words.

Off topic slightly:

Islam is nothing new, the Prophet pbuh prayed like the Jews, fasted on their days, observed the Sabbath and prayed towards Jerusalem. This was to show them the Prophet they had been expected Deut 18:18 was indeed this man, however they rejected him, which is why out of 286 verses of Chapter 2, God chose the 143rd verse to address the Muslims calling them a 'Middle' Nation, there after just as the first half of the Chapter reasoned and addressed the Israelites, so does the second half of the Chapter address the Muslims. Remember there was no book, it was and is pure recitation, and the book was compiled after the Prophet's death pbuh.

After the change in direction for prayer, the Jews realised they had run out of favour with God.

 

[Muffled]

I believe I have heard it all before and all the arguments against the Trinity don't hold water and all the arguments for the Trinity are cogent. I do agree the wording of the Apostles Creed meant to be clear actually lead to some confusion.

 

[Muffled]

Trinity is the Church's biggest self inflicted wound, one it has not managed to bandage up for 2,000 years.

I believe the true wound to Allah are those who speak against the Trinity.

 

[Muffled]

Seems very late.

While the trinity concept probably took a bit longer, 'Jesus as God' dates back to the 1st C.

Not quite sure when the Holy Spirit popped into the equation though.



Given that it is still the world's largest religion after 2000 years, it clearly hasn't been as much of a hinderance as you seem to suggest.

It's probably one of the most popular ideas in history, pretty much the opposite of a 'self-inflicted wound'.

I believe the biggest wound is to Islam in denying the Trinity and its own scriptures in doing so. It is a major embarrassment for that religion to be so far from reality.

 

[Muslim-UK]

I believe the true wound to Allah are those who speak against the Trinity.

A God head of 3 distinct separate persons/beings who together form One God, is not taught by Allah swt anywhere in the Tawrat, Injeel or Qur'an.

 

[Muffled]

A God head of 3 distinct separate persons/beings who together form One God, is not taught by Allah swt anywhere in the Tawrat, Injeel or Qur'an.

I believe it is but then there is not much need for it since the Bible is available to any God fearing person.

 

[Muslim-UK]

I believe it is but then there is not much need for it since the Bible is available to any God fearing person.

It is a Historical fact, Jesus pbuh was considered divine by the Gentile Church, who then sought to find verses to fit this Doctrine, later they also added the Holy Spirit to the God-head. This is why verses like 1 John 5-7, Matthew 28:19 are considered later fabrications. The style of writing in John's prologue is also evidence of this popular poem, borrowed from Greek philosophers being added later.

However there is little doubt the non Jewish writers of the Gospels, thought Jesus pbuh to be more than a mere man. Paul too indicates as much. It's a shame none of them met Jesus pbuh for themselves, instead they relied upon hearsay and legends that were circulating to bring more people into the new faith.