Which one? When?LittleNipper said:
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Noah and his Ark - Believe it or Not?
- Thread starter t3gah
- Start date
LittleNipper
Well-Known Member
His stepmother pulled Moses out from the bullrushes and adopted him. The Egyptians had the nasty habit (as did many ancient cultures) to totally disown and errase names from monuments, text, etc., of those that fell out of favor. Adopted Hebrews who killed Egyptians, I don't suppose to be very popular with the nobility.Deut. 32.8 said:
If you cannot answer the question, please don't waste the bandwidth pretending otherwise.LittleNipper said:
Now, let's try again: Which prince of Egypt? When was he prince?
LittleNipper
Well-Known Member
Imagine a 6000 year old barn. The probability is that it was exposed to the elements and rotted. It was scavengered by Noah and his family for firewood and building materal------since there were no forests left at that day. There was once a large barn complex that sat in the middle of Delran, New Jersey next to RT 130. In 1960, it boasted several dairy barns, three huge silos, a modern convention/catering hall, an icecream palor/resturant, and two very large houses. Everyone over 40 in the area knows all about it; however, NOTHING remains but some old milkbottles that various people have collected and faded photographs. The rest is history. Now, tell me again why you would imagine that a wooden ship would be allowed to collect cobwebs so people like yourself would establish some other "logical" reason not to have faith in GOD's Word.
robtex
Veteran Member
I am not expecting them to find a boat that big and old yesterday. I am expecting it to be found at some point in history. It has never been found. Ever. Even with millions of Christian zealots that have searched over thousands of years not a clue. Makes me think no body, no crime. You are claiming an event happened centuries ago involving a boat that has never been seen or discovered . Show us a boat or historical reference of when it was found in acient times and than well can talk senseably aobut Noah's flood story.
LittleNipper
Well-Known Member
If you cannot prove that Moses was not, why do you waste the bandwidth making curt remarks that do nothing to enlighten? We can try to learn or we can smack each other around.Deut. 32.8 said:
LittleNipper
Well-Known Member
Well, actually, there are those that have claimed to have found some artifacts surrounding it, but the excuses arise. Let's say 3000 years ago some tribe stumbled on the Ark. What would their tale mean to you today. Just a tale... So we are right back where you want to be. Living in unbelief. The FLOOD happened many millenia ago and there are a wide range of folk tales that seem to follow the same storyline as the Bible and often with characters of similar characteristics.robtex said:
You made an assertion. I'm asking you to sustantiate it.LittleNipper said:
How many millenia might that be?LittleNipper said:
robtex
Veteran Member
1) nobody has found the boat peroid. There is no "artifacts surround it" It has not been found at all.LittleNipper said:
2) If some "tribe" stumbled on it three thousand years ago don't you think that
a) they would have told others and it would have been recorded outside the bible?
b) more than one group would have found this huge boat and recorded it too?
There is no way to hide a boat that big....and nobody ever found it.
Ceridwen018
Well-Known Member
These are all good arguments, but has anyone mentioned the sheer impossibility of fitting even one of every animal, let alone two, on a single ship? Did god temporarily shrink them all down and have Noah manage their petri dishes for the duration of the voyage?
LittleNipper
Well-Known Member
Every one of what animals. All that is needed are a couple of every species. A pair of cats, a pair of dogs, etc... We have a few exceptions of seven "clean" animals (the odd one out was sacrificed after the Flood). We are talking about an event that could have happed, as long as, 8-10 thousand years ago. Noah and his wife and sons and their wives became all the nations of the world. We do not needs a pair of black dogs and a pair of white dogs. We do not need a bunch of different frogs. What has never been established scientificly is what is the variation range of any given species. Evolutionists are all to busy trying to tell people that everything developed from two amoeba-----billions and billions of years ago. So, all the ARK needed to hold was a variety of land animals that would breed into a spectrum of hybreds. There was no need for 2 Orientals, 2 Caucasians, 2 Blacks, 2 Brown skin, 2 Albinos, and 2 Red men. GOD basically only used 6 people to establish all the races and body types of HUMANS we have today. I see no reason why the very same was not true of each kind of land animal. Bugs would have lived on and around everything on the Ark. You have been conditioned to think in 100's of millions of years and really have no clue at what can be accomplished in thousands of years. That ship, I might add, was little more then a giant rectangle with three floors of rooms/stalls.Ceridwen018 said:
robtex
Veteran Member
Actually if you accept evolution, and I hope that you find that enlightment, than you don't need the ark at all. Evolution is the theory that within the constraints of the enviroment those species most fitted for survivial will be the more likely to survive. If our world was flooded than the fish that evolution states will later through evolution become mammels will push on and mammels would come about again. If evolution is true God would not need a boat to save the species that he chose to drown. Evolution is in fact, a very strong arguement against the boat which is why most ark believers are also creationlists.
But lets pretend your arugument is valid and one could believe in both the ark and evolution. The boat was made of wood. Even if you take two of every type of animal ......how much weight would you propose that would add up to. Have you seen pictures of the ark as described in the Bible? It is long and but not tall. Not too wide at all. As a matter of fact if you look back in this thread it is said (by Christians) to be only 75 feet wide but 450 feet long 45 tall. Kinda like a huge canoe.
We could run our own little ark experiement with this info. Find a canoe measure it and compare it to size to the ark. Than make an appoximate of the hundreds or maybe thousands of tons the ark would have had to hold even if it only had two humans two dogs two cats ect .....take the difference in the size of your wood canoe say it is 1/100 for purpose of ex and divide the hundreds of tons of weight by 100 to find how much to load in the canoe. Lets say we approx conservatively that 150 tons of wieght was on the ark. Divided by 100 would by 1.5 tons or 3000 pounds. Take a scale with you measure out 3000 lbs or rocks load them in the canoe and than row it to the other side of the lake.
If you had to guess reasonably how much do you think the animals weighed......on that boat?
But lets pretend your arugument is valid and one could believe in both the ark and evolution. The boat was made of wood. Even if you take two of every type of animal ......how much weight would you propose that would add up to. Have you seen pictures of the ark as described in the Bible? It is long and but not tall. Not too wide at all. As a matter of fact if you look back in this thread it is said (by Christians) to be only 75 feet wide but 450 feet long 45 tall. Kinda like a huge canoe.
We could run our own little ark experiement with this info. Find a canoe measure it and compare it to size to the ark. Than make an appoximate of the hundreds or maybe thousands of tons the ark would have had to hold even if it only had two humans two dogs two cats ect .....take the difference in the size of your wood canoe say it is 1/100 for purpose of ex and divide the hundreds of tons of weight by 100 to find how much to load in the canoe. Lets say we approx conservatively that 150 tons of wieght was on the ark. Divided by 100 would by 1.5 tons or 3000 pounds. Take a scale with you measure out 3000 lbs or rocks load them in the canoe and than row it to the other side of the lake.
If you had to guess reasonably how much do you think the animals weighed......on that boat?
It boggles the mind!LittleNipper said:
Little Nipper, perhaps you shoud give us a rough idea of just how many species were involved.
t3gah
Well-Known Member
8:18 Noah went forth, with his sons, his wife, and his sons wives with him. 8:19 Every animal, every creeping thing, and every bird, whatever moves on the earth, after their families, went out of the ship.
This is why I voted "I'm not sure". I liked the idea that they might have been babies. But they were in the ark for a year. What is the growth rate for elephants, hippopatimus, aligator, rhino, etc. ?
This is why I voted "I'm not sure". I liked the idea that they might have been babies. But they were in the ark for a year. What is the growth rate for elephants, hippopatimus, aligator, rhino, etc. ?
LittleNipper
Well-Known Member
The Babylonian had a "royal" cubit of 19.8". The Egyptians had a longer and shorter cubit of 20.26" and 17.6". The Hebrews had a long cubit of 20.4" and a common cubit of 17.5". The cubic to measure the Ark could have been longer; however, for the sake of fighting let's say the 17.5" cubic is correct. Accordingly the Ark would have been 475.5 feet long, 72.92 feet wide and 43.75 feet high. Since there were three decks the total deck area was abour 95,700 square feet. The total cubic feet was 1,396,000. The gross tonnage being about 13,960 tons.
For all practical purposes, one could say that, at the OUTSIDE, there was need for no more than 35,000 individual vertebrate animals on the Ark. The total number of "so-called" species stands at about 17,600; however, it is likely that "kinds" accounted for many less. Our modest cubic Ark had the carrying capacity equivalent to 522 stock cars. Each standard car has the capacity to handle 240 animals the average size of sheep. Two trains with 72 such cars each could handle 35,000 animals. That only accounts for 144 stock cars. Our modest Ark could accomodate ANOTHER 378 such cars...
For all practical purposes, one could say that, at the OUTSIDE, there was need for no more than 35,000 individual vertebrate animals on the Ark. The total number of "so-called" species stands at about 17,600; however, it is likely that "kinds" accounted for many less. Our modest cubic Ark had the carrying capacity equivalent to 522 stock cars. Each standard car has the capacity to handle 240 animals the average size of sheep. Two trains with 72 such cars each could handle 35,000 animals. That only accounts for 144 stock cars. Our modest Ark could accomodate ANOTHER 378 such cars...
Druidus
Keeper of the Grove
Let's use a simplified version of this scenario. We'll throw the measurements out the window, so we don't have to worry about them first. Assuming only elephants were on the ship, we can say there were two animals on the ship, excluding the humans and possible stowaways. The amount of food the average elephant needs in one day is 75 to 150 kilograms. We'll go with 150 for simplicity. Over the year (approximately) that the ark was supposedly on the water, we would need 109.5 metric tons of elephant food with us, excluding what the humans need. Combine that with the weight of both of elephants 9.2 metric tons, we already have 118.7 metric tons of weight on the ship. This is only the two African Elephants. I'm not sure, but 118.7 metric tons, for just two of the required animals is to much for a paltry wooden ark to hold. The flooring might even break. 118.7 metric tons is equal to the weight of approximately 1493 people. Could his ark hold that many people?
The story is largely impossible, and completely inconsistant with reality. However, it is likely that there is a seed of truth. Quite likely, infact, so much so, that I would bet my life on it. There was a man who built an ark, and used it to save his livestock and family from a flood, which lasted a relatively short period of time, many, many years ago. Over time, this morphed into the story we love/are indifferent to/hate today.
The story is largely impossible, and completely inconsistant with reality. However, it is likely that there is a seed of truth. Quite likely, infact, so much so, that I would bet my life on it. There was a man who built an ark, and used it to save his livestock and family from a flood, which lasted a relatively short period of time, many, many years ago. Over time, this morphed into the story we love/are indifferent to/hate today.