Noahs Ark

[Autodidact]

I understand doubting the flood. But are you that dense? The tops of trees were showing acordding to the Bible.

Could you cite the verse where it says the tops of trees were showing?
The flood covered Mt. Everest + 20 feet, but left the tops of trees exposed?

An olive tree lives for a year totally submersed in salt water except for its top, and survives?

A flood is so powerful that it carves out the Grand Canyon, but leaves the olive trees in the ground?

It was probably not an olive leaf in reality, but maybe a small piece of Kelp, moss, something more realistic to have survived 40 days in the water.

Well, in reality, none of it happened. But what you're saying is that when the Bible says, "olive leaf," it really means "kelp?" That's a pretty big stretch. Using that kind of interpretation, "global flood" could mean "glass of single-malt whiskey."

 

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Could you cite the verse where it says the tops of trees were showing?
The flood covered Mt. Everest + 20 feet, but left the tops of trees exposed?

An olive tree lives for a year totally submersed in salt water except for its top, and survives?

A flood is so powerful that it carves out the Grand Canyon, but leaves the olive trees in the ground?
Well, in reality, none of it happened. But what you're saying is that when the Bible says, "olive leaf," it really means "kelp?" That's a pretty big stretch. Using that kind of interpretation, "global flood" could mean "glass of single-malt whiskey."

Actually, I think that it was just a metaphor for the fact that the water was starting to lower. i do not think that it was global. I think that it was local.

Exactly. Thats why I feel that it isnt an olive tree.

 

[Amhairghine]

Science, physics, and mathematics as well as rational thinking has proven that Noah's Flood could never have happened at all. It could have been a local flood. I think it was not only a local flood but perhaps a blanding of legends of other post-Ice Age local floods. That is not the point in a religious discussion. The story, fictional as it was was incredibly IMMORAL.

1. Injustice: God murders all humans (men, women, children, babies, infants, and foetuses in pregnant women.) Why? Some adults had sinned in some way. That shows God to not be just but a cosmic killer alien of monstrous hate.

2. Injustice: God murders all non-human animals (a million million, non-human mammals, reptiles, birds, amphibians (all destroyed by salt water), fresh water fish, crustaceans, and smaller creatures.) This would have been an extinction event worse than the Permian Mass Extinction 251.4 million years ago in which 96% of all animal life died.

3. What sin could adult men possibly commit that warrented the deaths of millions or so women, children, babies, and foetuses plus a million million non-human animals?

What is so wrong with the story of Noah's Flood is not the fictional magic of how God murdered everyone but the immorality of the story. It is evil in its content and ideology.

 

[rusra02]

Where the heck did this olive leaf come from?? Wasn't the entire earth underwater? All the trees would have beed dead.

There are two possibilities. Since the olive is quite a hardy tree, it might have remained alive under water for some months during the Deluge. With the abating of the floodwaters, an olive tree that had been submerged would again be on dry ground and could put forth leaves. The olive leaf carried to Noah by the dove could also have been taken from a fairly young sprout that came up after the floodwaters had abated.

 

[Vile Atheist]

There are two possibilities. Since the olive is quite a hardy tree, it might have remained alive under water for some months during the Deluge. With the abating of the floodwaters, an olive tree that had been submerged would again be on dry ground and could put forth leaves. The olive leaf carried to Noah by the dove could also have been taken from a fairly young sprout that came up after the floodwaters had abated.

Debris seems more likely.

 

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Debris seems more likely.

probably something like that. maybe they saw debris on the ground...Actually it doesnt really matter. I'm indifferant to it. The point is taht the verses that talk about the olive leaf are basically saying that the waters were going down.

 

[Bware]

It was Noah and not Moses and there is no reference as to how the animals were going to actually get to other places than where they were concieved.

I knew that's what you were saying earlier. You know as well as I do that was a typo. And I know the Bible doesn't say how the animals got where they are today. I will say it again I CAN READ!!!!! When trying to participate in a debate, you don't further your point by regurgitating information: "well the bible says this"...I know it says that, that's what we are discussing. "well it says this too"....I KNOW!! How about using your brain, and making a hypothesis about what YOU think happened. That's kind the whole point of a religious debate forum. If you want to debate what the scripture itself means, then go post on the scriptural debates section.

I think I am going to be brave now and give it one more try...(pointless though it is)
sandy IN YOUR OPINION how did the animals get to their various indigenous regions?

 

[Bware]

And no matter how unrealistic or unscientific this sounds, you are wiling to blindly believe it because an ancient text says so?

Yes of course she is.

 

[Bware]

And are you not one bit curious as to how all these animals returned to there place of origin? I would think that if you put so much stock into these stories, you would want some justification for these unrealistic events.

Sandy doesn't seem to want any sort of justification, apparently she thinks it doesn't matter. She seems to just care what it says, and to take it literally.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Where the heck did this olive leaf come from?? Wasn't the entire earth underwater? All the trees would have beed dead.

Out of all the trees the bird just happened to bring back a leaf from a tree that was indigenous to the area. This is why I think those who wrote the fairytale were writing a story from their perspectives, and including items into their story from their surroundings....with a little help getting the story going by plagiarizing the Epic of Gilgamesh......

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Actually, I think that it was just a metaphor for the fact that the water was starting to lower. i do not think that it was global. I think that it was local.

Exactly. Thats why I feel that it isnt an olive tree.

Well supposedly it could be NOTHING but an "olive" leaf. The word they use is (Zayith) which I've only found throughout your bible as having to do with (Olive). Whether olive tree, olive yard...etc.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

It's not the sky that separated the water from above from the water from below it was space. The water that flooded the earth in Noah's time came from heaven and returned to heaven, according to the Bible.

Then define Firmament and define Heaven. Are you capable of doing that?

Here are some hints. The "Firmament" is supposed to be the supposed visible arch of the sky where "heaven" is the sky. At least those are the definitions when I look them up.

We know you can "read" the bible and we know the bible says this and the bible says that...we want to know what (you think) it means.

This is why we asked....for the definition of "Window of Heaven". I suspect that back then they simply saw it raining but didn't know what made it rain and where rain water came from and because they didn't have an understanding they believed their god opened a window from the sky thus making it rain. Shucks, they probably looked up at the sky, saw that it was blue like water thus making the assumption that the sky constantly held a layer of water above it

Firmament: visible arch of the earth bordering on space
Heaven: visible sky

 

[Dirty Penguin]

And you know some YEC's are gonna get on and post all kinds of stuff trying to refute varves, so let me just post this up as a pre-rebuttle. Truth In Geology Series, The Truth about Varves this is a CHRISTIAN website basically using scince *gasp* to show that varves are valid and YEC's are full of it.

Here's a good spot to see them...

YouTube - Extreme Varving

 

[Autodidact]

Recently I was hearing the people of Galveston talk about how sad they are that all of their trees were killed by salt water poisoning from the flood caused by Hurricane Ike. Ike caused 13 days of floodwater as high as 8 feet. Every tree is dead. They had to bring in seedlings from outside. Obviously, with a world-wide flood there is no outside. Every tree on earth is dead, and no way to replant.

 

[averageJOE]

There are two possibilities. Since the olive is quite a hardy tree, it might have remained alive under water for some months during the Deluge. With the abating of the floodwaters, an olive tree that had been submerged would again be on dry ground and could put forth leaves. The olive leaf carried to Noah by the dove could also have been taken from a fairly young sprout that came up after the floodwaters had abated.

Genesis 7:23 " Every living thing on the face of the earth was wiped out; men and animals and the creatures that move along the ground and the birds of the air were wiped from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those with him in the ark."

So I guess olive trees don't count as living things?
For starters; I've heard the "hardiness of olive trees" argument plenty of times. But no matter how you try and spin it, there is no way any type of land tree can survive submerged underwater for a year without sunlight.

About the seeds: Problems with a Global Flood, 2nd edition
-Many plants (seeds and all) would be killed by being submerged for a few months. This is especially true if they were soaked in salt water. Some mangroves, coconuts, and other coastal species have seed which could be expected to survive the Flood itself, but what of the rest?
-Most seeds would have been buried under many feet (even miles) of sediment. This is deep enough to prevent spouting.
-Most plants require established soils to grow--soils which would have been stripped by the Flood.
-Some plants germinate only after being exposed to fire or after being ingested by animals; these conditions would be rare (to put it mildly) after the Flood.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Genesis 7:23 " Every living thing on the face of the earth was wiped out; men and animals and the creatures that move along the ground and the birds of the air were wiped from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those with him in the ark."

So I guess olive trees don't count as living things?
For starters; I've heard the "hardiness of olive trees" argument plenty of times. But no matter how you try and spin it, there is no way any type of land tree can survive submerged underwater for a year without sunlight.

About the seeds: Problems with a Global Flood, 2nd edition
-Many plants (seeds and all) would be killed by being submerged for a few months. This is especially true if they were soaked in salt water. Some mangroves, coconuts, and other coastal species have seed which could be expected to survive the Flood itself, but what of the rest?
-Most seeds would have been buried under many feet (even miles) of sediment. This is deep enough to prevent spouting.
-Most plants require established soils to grow--soils which would have been stripped by the Flood.
-Some plants germinate only after being exposed to fire or after being ingested by animals; these conditions would be rare (to put it mildly) after the Flood.

Let alone being submerged under "salt water" conditions, mud, rocks and other debris.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

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Aren't the 6 creative days summed up as 'a day' at Genesis (2:4) because it says 'in the day' God made the earth and heavens? So the word day in Scripture has various shades of meaning depending on context. If you were to say 'in your grandfather's day' wouldn't you be meaning more than a 24-hour day? No where in Scripture does it say the creative days were each 24-hours long. Is the 7th day a 24-hour day?

RE: When did the Flood occur?

Using the Bible's chronological information allows for a count back to the time frame. Gen 5:1-29 is the genealogical line from creation of Adam to Noah. Noah was 600 at Gen 7:11.

539 BC (BCE) is a pivotal date when King Cyrus overthrew Babylon
The Jewish remnant left Babylon and arrived in their homeland in 537 BC (BCE). That marks the end of the 70 year desolation 607BC (BCE).
Followed by the period of Judges and the period of Kings that brings the time of the Exodus from Egypt to 1513 BC (BCE) .
Counting back 430 years is to the making of the covenant with Abraham in 1943 BC (BCE). The births are accounted for for Terah, Nahor, Serug, Reu, Peleg, Eber and Shelah and Arpachshad, who was born two years after the Flood (Genesis 11:10-32). That puts the beginning of the Flood at 2370 BC(BCE)

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Genesis 7:23 " Every living thing on the face of the earth was wiped out; men and animals and the creatures that move along the ground and the birds of the air were wiped from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those with him in the ark."

So I guess olive trees don't count as living things?
For starters; I've heard the "hardiness of olive trees" argument plenty of times. But no matter how you try and spin it, there is no way any type of land tree can survive submerged underwater for a year without sunlight.

About the seeds: Problems with a Global Flood, 2nd edition
-Many plants (seeds and all) would be killed by being submerged for a few months. This is especially true if they were soaked in salt water. Some mangroves, coconuts, and other coastal species have seed which could be expected to survive the Flood itself, but what of the rest?
-Most seeds would have been buried under many feet (even miles) of sediment. This is deep enough to prevent spouting.
-Most plants require established soils to grow--soils which would have been stripped by the Flood.
-Some plants germinate only after being exposed to fire or after being ingested by animals; these conditions would be rare (to put it mildly) after the Flood.

Noah was in the Ark for a year. ( One Lunar year and 10 days). That does not mean the waters did not recede before one year. Genesis (7:24) says the waters overwhelmed the earth 150 days. Chapter 8 says the rains also stopped. So at the end of 150 days the waters were lacking. In the 7th month on the 17 day of the month the ark came to rest on the mountains of Ararat (Genesis 7:24-8:4) So the period from when the waters overwhelmed to the time they receded was 150 days, or 5 months. Thus the Ark came to rest on the mountains of Ararat in April of 2369 BC(BCE)

Those tree tops would have received the light first.

Genesis 85-17) the tops of the mountains appeared (Armenian highlands surrounded the Ark) nearly 2 1/2 months (73 days) later. 10th month (June) on the 1st of the month. Three months later in the 1st month on the 1st day of the month or in mid-September -2369 BC(BCE) Noah removed the covering and saw the ground drained dry. (Gen 8:13). One month and 27 says later on the 27th day of the month or mid-November 2369 BC (BCE) the earth dried off. Then Noah came out.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

During the 2nd creative period or 'day' when the earth's atmospheric 'expanse' was formed, there were waters beneath that 'expanse' and waters above it (Gen. 1:6,7) The waters 'beneath' were those already on earth. Waters 'above' were the quantities of moisture suspended high above the earth, forming this vast watery deep. It was those waters that fell upon the earth in Noah's day.

The 'windows of heaven' would be flood gates opening causing water to fall. Rain could thus descend in channels besides as just rainfall.
Gen (8:2) they were then stopped up.

Heaven has the basic meaning of high or lofty. Mid heaven would be where the birds fly. Outer space, or the physical heavens, extends through earth's atmosphere. The spiritual heavens is where angels and God dwell.

Before the Flood the ice caps were not frozen, and as you know if they melt the water levels will rise. The sudden change in climate caused the ice caps to form.

Water drained off into the sea basins. Apparently before the Flood there was more land area, so sea basins would now be enlarged to cover 70%.

Remarks ^ above^ about the 'windows of heaven'.

 

[Autodidact]

Noah was in the Ark for a year. ( One Lunar year and 10 days). That does not mean the waters did not recede before one year. Genesis (7:24) says the waters overwhelmed the earth 150 days. Chapter 8 says the rains also stopped. So at the end of 150 days the waters were lacking. In the 7th month on the 17 day of the month the ark came to rest on the mountains of Ararat (Genesis 7:24-8:4) So the period from when the waters overwhelmed to the time they receded was 150 days, or 5 months. Thus the Ark came to rest on the mountains of Ararat in April of 2369 BC(BCE)

Those tree tops would have received the light first.

Genesis 85-17) the tops of the mountains appeared (Armenian highlands surrounded the Ark) nearly 2 1/2 months (73 days) later. 10th month (June) on the 1st of the month. Three months later in the 1st month on the 1st day of the month or in mid-September -2369 BC(BCE) Noah removed the covering and saw the ground drained dry. (Gen 8:13). One month and 27 says later on the 27th day of the month or mid-November 2369 BC (BCE) the earth dried off. Then Noah came out.

Meanwhile, any tree under water for 150 days would be DEAD. We know that for a fact.