Noahs Ark

[misanthropic_clown]

Here's another long thoughtful Mormon article rejecting the literal flood. Do you think all of these scholars are rejecting Monson's revelation?

The link doesn't seem to be working for me.

And just for the record I am not entirely certain Monson himself has made specific claims regarding the flood, though certainly many recent and historic senior figures in the church have. It certainly wouldn't be the first time historical opinions of church leaders have been rejected due to scientific evidence. I certainly don't think I could find a member today who supports Brigham Young's hypotheses that there are men living on the moon and the sun.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

She asked politely. You'll do what you'll do.

And you do what you do.:blowkiss:

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Will you be defining words for us or simply relying on the KJV.....Which version of the KJV will you be using...?

So if we are to understand...your understanding and what your bible is saying...The earth was created BEFORE the Universe. Is this your position?.....

It's without a doubt they believed the earth was the center of the universe. This view stayed that way into the early 1500s (AD). So if you stand by the biblical claim the earth was created before the universe then you don't do your posting any justice.

What "lights" are you referring to? What lights are in the firmament that will give light upon the earth? That we know of, there is but one light source from a star that can do this. All other stars are too far away. What is the "them"? The moon has no light nor does it produce light.

So your god is just getting around to making the stars and placing them in the firmament? If this is the case then what light was created on the first day in verses 3,4 and 5? Mind you...as you assert, the whole of the universe, with the exception of earth which is (INSIDE the universe) didn't come into existence until verse eight, the second day and it wasn't until the fourth day when your god created the sun and the stars. Here's a small tidbit of info for you. The sun is a star.


Your very own apologist say no.
The Water Vapor Canopy Theory: Why the Bible (And Science) Says It is False.

You are going off on tangents unrelated to the OP. If you wish they could be addressed in another thread.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Wow, how screwed up is this. I'll try and make as clear and as simple as possible. All verses are from the KJV.

" In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." Gen1:1 That happened on the first day (Gen 1:5).
There was no space which is the firmament and which is what we call the universe space and it's contents. This was created on the 2nd day, "And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day." Gen 1:6-8

How do we know this was space."And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth..." Gen 1:14-17 That is unless you think the sun the moon and the stars are in the sky.

From these verses it is obvious that at the end of the first day the universe was not as we know it, which I stated, that the firmament (space) separated the waters from above (Heaven) from the waters below Earth (which I have to presume that included the sky since there is no reference to it's separate creation yet it appears in verse 21 as "the open firmament of heaven."

The waters for the flood did not come from earth the came from the waters that were above the firmament (Gen 7:11).

I think your misperception come from using Bible dictionaries instead of the Bible.

So if we are to understand...your understanding and what your bible is saying...The earth was created BEFORE the Universe. Is this your position?.....

It's without a doubt they believed the earth was the center of the universe. This view stayed that way into the early 1500s (AD). So if you stand by the biblical claim the earth was created before the universe then you don't do your posting any justice.
................

You are going off on tangents unrelated to the OP. If you wish they could be addressed in another thread.

Pot...meet kettle....

 

[misanthropic_clown]

Pot...meet kettle....

In fairness, tangential discussions are the lifeblood of this forum.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

The word 'anemia' comes to mind.

 

[misanthropic_clown]

The word 'anemia' comes to mind.

I guess so, but frankly some of the tangents can be quite interesting.

 

[tumbleweed41]

In fairness, tangential discussions are the lifeblood of this forum.

Oh, not condemning tangential discussions, just pointing out Sandy's hypocrisy.

 

[Bware]

Let's approach this story from a different angle and talk about how Noah and his family populated the entire earth. The whole silly Flood story - SkepticReport


If we create a simple formula using today’s population of ~6 billion, and figure in the starting population (8 individuals), and the starting time (4360 YBP), we get an annual growth rate of about 0.0047. Since that IS what happened, according to creationists, and it IS the only possible explanation for today’s human population then…

1. At Christ’s death there were only about half a million people in the whole world!
2. At the time the Israelites entered Canaan, (about 1180 BCE) we get a world population of 2024! By the time you divide that up between Egypt, Canaan, the rest of the world, and Israel, that leaves maybe 6 or 7 people for the Israelite army!
3. If we go back to the time that the Jews were expelled from Egypt, in 1560 BCE, we get a world population of only 340 people!
4. In 2300 BCE there were only about 10 people on Earth! How did fewer than a dozen people build the pyramids?

We are talking about rapid human reproduction here! And this is all assuming not a single baby had a birth defect that prevented it from reproducing. Also, families would not have been able to stay together very long. From one generation to the next they would have to constantly pick up and leave.

AJ made an extremely valid point here, and I don't see any Christys responding so far. What is your explanation for this?

Answer predection: "the numbers are off, the Bible says XXXX"

 

[Autodidact]

Yes, add to the list of unsolved problems for flood-advocates: the population figures don't work.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

You are going off on tangents unrelated to the OP. If you wish they could be addressed in another thread.

Well, I give you credit on your ability to evade. As far as "tangents"...I was simply responding to you. At the end of it all it was brought back on track by a (Christian Apologist) who disagreed with the you and YECs. The Water Vapor Canopy Theory: Why the Bible (And Science) Says It is False

Scientific discovery shows us there was no canopy/vault/firmament (water layer) above the earth. The earth's atmosphere does not contain enough water to cover the entire earth. There is no geological data to confirm the notion of a WWF. During said flood we know there were civilizations who appeared to not know they were supposedly under water.

 

[Autodidact]

During said flood we know there were civilizations who appeared to not know they were supposedly under water.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Oh, not condemning tangential discussions, just pointing out Sandy's hypocrisy.

I believe I entered this thread to correct a point that was already posted. Let me also point out that is I who often will not answer tangental questions which leads others to frustration. It is also I who offered to take it up in a relevant thread. Maybe accusing me of a minor hypocrisy would be more applicable.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Well, I give you credit on your ability to evade.

I'm evading nothing. If you wish to discuss light, let's do it in another thread where the topic is not water.

As far as "tangents"...I was simply responding to you. At the end of it all it was brought back on track by a (Christian Apologist) who disagreed with the you and YECs. The Water Vapor Canopy Theory: Why the Bible (And Science) Says It is False.

I've never prescribed to a water canopy theory and have not responded to or proffered such a theory. You're confused.

Scientific discovery shows us there was no canopy/vault/firmament (water layer) above the earth. The earth's atmosphere does not contain enough water to cover the entire earth. There is no geological data to confirm the notion of a WWF. During said flood we know there were civilizations who appeared to not know they were supposedly under water.

Once again......I do not try and reconcile Biblical history and natural history. The Bible does address where the extra water comes from though. This is the misperception I've addrressed.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Once again......I do not try and reconcile Biblical history and natural history.

Then what's (YOUR) point? We know YECs will always have a hard time making certain biblical claims fit into the natural world yet they continue to make the claims...and we continue to show them how ridiculous the claims are.....

See, to you there is a difference from "biblical history" and the natural world but it seems we have others here who do not make such a distinction.

The Bible does address where the extra water comes from though. This is the misperception I've addrressed.

What "mis-perception"......?

It rained...big whoop....These superstitious people had no understanding where water from the sky comes from and what processes caused it to rained.

 

[darkendless]

Once again......I do not try and reconcile Biblical history and natural history. The Bible does address where the extra water comes from though. This is the misperception I've addrressed.

The bible does not address how the excess water did not fracture the earth, nor does it explain the lack of geological inconsistencies in the soil profiles taken randomly in the earth.

The bible is a long way off the mark.

 

[tumbleweed41]

The sky is blue.
However, I have a book that says it is brown.
I will not attempt to reconcile the two.
But I will consistently tell you why I accept that it is brown.
Although I will not deny it is blue.
Why are you talking about light refraction, get back on topic!!

:run:

 

[MSizer]

I've done this before, but I can't resist it again. Estimates place between 3 million and 30 million animal species on earth.

I’ve calculated that Noah could run constantly at a pace of 489, 580 mph (Four hundred and Eighty Nine Thousand five hundred and eighty miles per hour).

If noah's ark story is true, then it is reasonable to believe that the 99% of species that have become extinct existed then. So, if we pick the mean number between 3 million and 30 million (16 million) and factor that as %1 of the animal species in Noah's time, there would have been 160 000 000 species at that time. Noah collected two of each, or 320 000 000 (three hundred and twenty million) animals on the ark.

The Noah is first mentioned in Genesis when he was supposedly 500 years old, and entered the ark at the age of 600. So, he would have had to build the ark and populate it in 100 years or less.

An elephant of sexual maturity would have to have at least 60 square feet, while a mosquito might only need 1/4 of a square foot. Therefore, the average space needed for the animals would work out to maybe 25 sqare feet. So, 25 square feet times 320 000 000 animals equals a total of 2560000000000 square feet. An average log of 8" diameter by 8' could produce enough lumber to build 20 sqare feet of floor, so Noah would have needed 128 000 000 logs (128 million) to build the ark. If we admit that Noah would have had to sleep for 30 of the 100 years, he would have had to fell and hew 128 000 000 logs, collect 320 000 000 animals and build the ark within 25 550 days (70 years). So, Let's alot an even amout of time to collect animals, collecting lumber, and building the ark. That means Noah would have had to cut down 128 million logs and hew them within 208 days. He would have to fell and hew trees at the rate of 615, 384 per day, or 51, 182 / hour, or, 427 per second. If it took equal time to find a suitable tree, fall and hew it, and return the log to his property, and the average distance of a tree from the building site were 16 miles, he would need to be moving back and forth at a pace of 13 664 (16 * 427 * 2) miles per second, or 163, 680 miles per hour. Noah didn't even have a motor vehicle, but apparently he didn't need one, because he was one hell of a fast runner! In fact, if we consider that an equal amount of time is needed to build the ark, collect the lumber, and to collect the animals, he'd actually have to had run at 489, 540 miles per hour.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Then what's (YOUR) point? We know YECs will always have a hard time making certain biblical claims fit into the natural world yet they continue to make the claims...and we continue to show them how ridiculous the claims are.....

See, to you there is a difference from "biblical history" and the natural world but it seems we have others here who do not make such a distinction.



What "mis-perception"......?

It rained...big whoop....These superstitious people had no understanding where water from the sky comes from and what processes caused it to rained.

First, do you care to have me point out your misperceptions about Biblical light in another thread, if so, start one.

Next, as I have stated before, and will state again for you, I entered this thread to clear up a Biblical misperception. People were pointing out that there is not enough water on earth to account for a worldwide submerging flood and stating that this contradicts the Biblical view. It doesn't. The extra water, according to the Bible, came from heaven and returned there. Why is this a difficult thing for you to understand? I doubt that I can present it any more simply than I have. I have also stated that if one is going to argue against the Bible at least get the Biblical view correct.

Finally, it seems to me that you hold to the view that there is no divine inspiration to the Bible. As long as you hold to that view I seriously doubt that we will ever have a constructive debate, but occasionly I have time to waste, so go at it if you wish.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

The bible does not address how the excess water did not fracture the earth, nor does it explain the lack of geological inconsistencies in the soil profiles taken randomly in the earth.

The bible is a long way off the mark.

As I have stated before, if the Bible addressed every concern of man it would be too large a tome to carry to church on Sunday. God evidently included in Scripture what He wanted and was deemed meaningful to man. Others wish to prolong doubtful disputations.