Noahs Ark

[OmarKhayyam]

"Others wish to prolong doubtful disputations."

Or simply believe that the facts of "God's Word" should match the facts of god's creation.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

"Others wish to prolong doubtful disputations."

Or simply believe that the facts of "God's Word" should match the facts of god's creation.

That leaves no room for faith. It also presumes that it doesn't.

 

[OmarKhayyam]

That leaves no room for faith. It also presumes that it doesn't.

Correct, on both counts.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

First, do you care to have me point out your misperceptions about Biblical light in another thread, if so, start one.

I may...but I may not. The question of light wasn't even brought up by me.....but I was merely replying to someones misunderstanding http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/1682665-post366.html.

Next, as I have stated before, and will state again for you, I entered this thread to clear up a Biblical misperception. People were pointing out that there is not enough water on earth to account for a worldwide submerging flood and stating that this contradicts the Biblical view. It doesn't. The extra water, according to the Bible, came from heaven and returned there. Why is this a difficult thing for you to understand?

This is why we asked to define heaven. Your understanding of the word, the concept and the place varies in your bible. The word simply means (sky). These people had no understanding as to why the sky appeared blue but thought water existed above the clouds. They were wrong. They thought the earth was the center of the universe and the world was flat. They were wrong.

You've admitted that one may not be able to reconcile the bible with the natural world but that is the problem. Telling us the water came from heaven and returned to heaven contradicts what we know in the natural world. We do not have evidence that the world was flooded and this water evaporated or mysteriously returned to some unknown place.

Such an event would have and should have left traces across the globe but it didn't. We should find human as well as animal remains on a massive scale but we don't. We seemed to have unearthed more dinosaurs that are millions of years old buried far deeper than any human or animal remains that would have been buried 4000+ years ago. In the grand scheme of things 4000 years ago compared to millions of years isn't a very long time at all.

Windows of heaven simply meant they looked to the sky and saw it raining. Observing your book of Daniel makes this point clear. Heaven to them was the sky or what they called sky when they looked up.

I have also stated that if one is going to argue against the Bible at least get the Biblical view correct.

Finally, it seems to me that you hold to the view that there is no divine inspiration to the Bible. As long as you hold to that view I seriously doubt that we will ever have a constructive debate,

So because I don't believe what you believe then constructive debate is out the window? (No pun intended)

 

[OmarKhayyam]

"So because I don't believe what you believe then constructive debate is out the window?"

Actually he is right. Yes, it is. Unless you accept his premises there is very little you have in common with him., Or any other true believer.

Kinda like talking with Marxists. You either accept their Marxism or you go nowhere. Same thing here. You either believe or you don't. If you do all makes sense and fits perfectly.

If not . . . .

 

[URAVIP2ME]

The 'physical heavens' is the full scope of earth's atmosphere. So sometimes' 'sky'' is meant by heavens. 'Mid heaven' would be where the birds fly. (Rev 8:13; 14:6; 19:17; Deut 4:11) Meridian or directly overhead.
As the heavens surround the earth on all 'sides' then God's vision of everything under the whole heavens embraces all of the globe- Job 28:24.

Beyond earth's atmosphere is the sun moon stars of outer space which heavens existed before earth's . They are called the host or armies of the heavens- Deut 4:19.

Even the angelic dwelling place is called heavens, but that is the 'spiritual heavens'.
-Dan 7:10. Dan 12:7 hands were raised toward the heavens in swearing an oath.
In Daniel heavens also represent rulerships. - Dan 4:20-22; 25,26; 2:44; 7:13,14.

The 'heavens of the heavens' (Deut 10:14; Nehemiah 9:6) embraces the complete extent of the 'physical heavens'. Whereas the 'spiritual heavens' is described as God's lofty abode. (Isaiah 57:15;63:15; Psalm 33:13,14;115:3,16).

In 2nd Peter there are three (3) heavens mentioned:

1) 2Peter 3:5 is the 'old' heavens, or the heavens of Noah's day.
2) Vs 7 is the heavens of 'now' or our earthly society (Psalm 96:1) that has its governmental heavens, so to speak, ruling over it.
3) Then there are the 'new' heavens of vs 13 when during Jesus coming thousand-year reign over earth there will dwell righteousness for earthly society.

Depending on context and setting is how one can discern which heavens are meant.

 

[Autodidact]

You're still having a conversation with yourself, and ignoring the many objections that have been raised.

 

[darkendless]

As I have stated before, if the Bible addressed every concern of man it would be too large a tome to carry to church on Sunday. God evidently included in Scripture what He wanted and was deemed meaningful to man. Others wish to prolong doubtful disputations.

How convenient for you. I didn't know it was up to you to speak for people who had no idea what geology was and obviously ommitted it out of lack of understanding, instead of adding 1 page more to genesis.

 

[OmarKhayyam]

"3) Then there are the 'new' heavens of vs 13 when during Jesus coming thousand-year reign over earth there will dwell righteousness for earthly society.

Depending on context and setting is how one can discern which heavens are meant."

It is still hard to realize that in the 21st century in the most educated and technology advanced civilization ever known otherwise intelligent people actually BELIEVE this claptrap.

 

[shortfade2]

Isnt there a verse somewhere that says something along the lines of Thank you God that you have hidden this from those with great minds, but revealed it to us. ?

Also, It really upsets me when you respond with a face. It doesnt prove or disprove your point, it only says that you think that it is bullcrap. Please, tell us why you think it is bull after your sarcastic face.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Isnt there a verse somewhere that says something along the lines of Thank you God that you have hidden this from those with great minds, but revealed it to us. ?

The fact of the matter is there is nothing "hidden"......

WWF - No evidence, no matter how far down we dig, exist to support the biblical claim of the flood.

Also, It really upsets me when you respond with a face. It doesnt prove or disprove your point, it only says that you think that it is bullcrap. Please, tell us why you think it is bull after your sarcastic face.

Is this in reference to me? I think I may have been the last person to post using a face. In my case, if you look at the accusation made, it made no sense at all.

 

[shortfade2]

well. I have seen it a lot before, but I saw yours and it kindof set me off a little bit.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

well. I have seen it a lot before, but I saw yours and it kindof set me off a little bit.

Well, I can't help how you fell....but the emoticons are there for the purpose we're using them for.....but your charge ("It doesnt prove or disprove your point, it only says that you think that it is bullcrap. Please, tell us why you think it is bull after your sarcastic face.").... IMO, is unfounded.

The claim the bible makes for a WWF can not be corroborated by what we know of our planet. Geology, and archeology are not in agreement with the biblical claim of a WWF nor does it agree with those who pose wild unfounded claims of water from the sky/heavens.

So we have met burden #1. We have proven it time and time again. We given you the data, the study. This is all out there and is testable. YEC ("scientist") have tried to refute the standard knowledge of what we know about the earth to try and fit the flood narrative into the natural world but it doesn't work. We've met burden #2. We're not claiming "bull crap" because we're pulling our reasoning out of thin air. We have the data that disputes such an event EVER happening.

As you plainly admit, you're not "science smart" so you didn't think you were equipped to debate. So, I think, you should go get acquainted with the scientific data because we are and that's why we can call the biblical claim (bull crap)

 

[freethinker44]

Isnt there a verse somewhere that says something along the lines of Thank you God that you have hidden this from those with great minds, but revealed it to us. ?

Maybe, but I know there is this.


Proverbs 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.

Proverbs 15:7
The lips of the wise disperse knowledge: but the heart of the foolish doeth not so.

Proverbs 15:2
The tongue of the wise useth knowledge aright: but the mouth of fools poureth out foolishness.


I would guess god values great minds.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

"So because I don't believe what you believe then constructive debate is out the window?"

Actually he is right. Yes, it is. Unless you accept his premises there is very little you have in common with him., Or any other true believer.

Kinda like talking with Marxists. You either accept their Marxism or you go nowhere. Same thing here. You either believe or you don't. If you do all makes sense and fits perfectly.

If not . . . .

Correct. I've already run into this problem with Dirty. For example, he stated that the people of the time of the writing of Genesis had a limited understanding of cosmology and he bases the meaning of scripture on that premise. I on the otherhand think that God inspired the details of Genesis and therefore the people's understanding is irrelevant to the true meaning. On that basis I would think we would always be debating apples and oranges.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Maybe, but I know there is this.


Proverbs 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.

Proverbs 15:7
The lips of the wise disperse knowledge: but the heart of the foolish doeth not so.

Proverbs 15:2
The tongue of the wise useth knowledge aright: but the mouth of fools poureth out foolishness.


I would guess god values great minds.

It would seem from those verses that God values wisdom. There was no mention of great minds.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

I may...but I may not.

It might be illuminating.

 

[Free4all]

Blah - Blah

 

[richardlowellt]

Blah - Blah

Thanks for joining the conversation and for your intelligent input!

 

[Arlanbb]

sandy whitelinger;1708304]Correct. .......I on the otherhand think that God inspired the details of Genesis and therefore the people's understanding is irrelevant to the true meaning.
Hi Sandy ~ You say that you THINK God inspired the details of Genesis. Maybe you can help me understand some of the statements in Genesis that God made about Abraham.
In the story of Abraham, Gen. 25:10, Abraham buys a burial ground from a town full of Hittites. Most biblical historians say that Abraham lived around 2000 to 1900 BC maybe as late as 1850BC. According to all real historical accounts the Hittite Empire developed in what we call Turkey in around 1540 BC.

Please explain to me how God was able to make Abraham live 300 more years so he could buy a cave from a Hittite?

Second question ~ there are two stories in Gen. 20 and 21 about Abraham meeting Abimelech, the Philistines. According to all historican the Philistines didn't invade Palestine until the 13 century.

Please explain to me why God again gives us a story that makes Abraham over 700 years old to meet Abimelech?

Does God think we are stuped by giving us some stories that makes Abraham up to 700 years old??? Maybe God thinks we can not add numbers and figure out that God is stringing us along.

I'm sure we would all be interested in your answer about how God gave Abraham a very long age. Looking for your repley:yes: