Non-Binary

[Kfox]

It's only meaningless if you have nothing between your ears.

The problem with gender being based on your thoughts, is these thoughts vary from person to person. I don't see any meaning when gender is defined this way; do you? If so, where is the meaning?

 

[Kfox]

Perhaps this will help you: the brains of transgender women are shifted towards the female brain compared to cis males.

Brain Sex in Transgender Women Is Shifted towards Gender Identity - PMC

Transgender people report discomfort with their birth sex and a strong identification with the opposite sex. The current study was designed to shed further light on the question of whether the brains of transgender people resemble their birth sex or ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

A study based on 24 people? Really??? If a simple brain scan could provide empirical evidence of who is trans and who is not, they would have been doing brain scans to confirm transgenderism rather than doing surgery on children based on what they say.

 

[crossfire]

The problem with gender being based on your thoughts, is these thoughts vary from person to person. I don't see any meaning when gender is defined this way; do you? If so, where is the meaning?

Between your ears. See the study in post #179, which I will quote for your convenience:

Perhaps this will help you: the brains of transgender women are shifted towards the female brain compared to cis males.

Brain Sex in Transgender Women Is Shifted towards Gender Identity - PMC

Transgender people report discomfort with their birth sex and a strong identification with the opposite sex. The current study was designed to shed further light on the question of whether the brains of transgender people resemble their birth sex or ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[crossfire]

A study based on 24 people? Really??? If a simple brain scan could provide empirical evidence of who is trans and who is not, they would have been doing brain scans to confirm transgenderism rather than doing surgery on children based on what they say.

It is my understanding that a diagnosis of gender dysphoria is required before performing bottom surgery on minors? I could be mistaken.

 

[Kfox]

Basically it means stereotyped to one gender or the other.

Those stereotypes are considered sexist, so they no longer apply today

That is very true. But certain jobs are traditionally for men and others for women

Traditionally, yes. But those sexist traditions do not apply today

It doesn't make it meaningless. It actually makes it quite fascinating because each each culture and time has decided whats appropriate for men and women and third amd fourth sexes,

This has nothing to do with culture. When gender is based on your thoughts, even people within the same culture will not agree on gender when you separate if from biology because each person within a given culture will still have different thoughts. Again; where is the meaning?
And by the way; there is no such a thing as a third or fourth sex. According to science, all humans are mammals, and all mammals are either male or female; this is the case regardless if you are dog, cat, or human.

 

[Kfox]

It is my understanding that a diagnosis of gender dysphoria is required before performing bottom surgery on minors? I could be mistaken.

If your link is correct, why do a complete diagnosis when a simple brain scan is only needed? All you would have to see is if the person claiming gender dysphoria has the brain of a different sex; right???

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Those stereotypes are considered sexist, so they no longer apply today

Look into support groups for stay at home dads if you think they no longer apply. They do. Likewise, men still get the raw end in custody because of gender stereotypes and norms.

Traditionally, yes. But those sexist traditions do not apply today

Ever hear of the restaurant Hooters?

This has nothing to do with culture. When gender is based on your thoughts, even people within the same culture will not agree on gender when you separate if from biology because each person within a given culture will still have different thoughts. Again; where is the meaning?
And by the way; there is no such a thing as a third or fourth sex. According to science, all humans are mammals, and all mammals are either male or female; this is the case regardless if you are dog, cat, or human.

But people do agree like we do with language amd the many signs that navigate through our day. It's something fascinating about the brain is we are wired for eachother. And out of this grows a number of universal or near universal features of human culture, but despite this universality how these things are expressed and communicated are not universal.
Like how many consider there to be a more manly way to talk and a more feminine way to talk. With language absolutely nothing universal about it other than we are typically and normally born with an insatiable urge and desire and will to absorb it starting on our first day of birth. The words we use, the cases and articles, there's nothing universal about them, there's nothing making it actually existing outside our head. But we have language rules and grammar and norms anyways, and one universal is a taboo against cussing, which is generally thought of as more ok for men than women, but only in certain situations. There's absolutely no rhyme or reason to this, we do it just because it's how we evolved as social animals. There's nothing that makes a word like **** offensive except at some point it was decided so amd now it gets censored, just as there's no rhyme or reason the word is considered unladylike for a female to use it.
This stuff al being based on thoughts and feelings and social consensus makes none of it meaningless. To the contrary it's a part of what makes being humans so profound and amazing. We do stuff like this, amd we don't even generally ever think about it. How is tjat meaningless?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

If your link is correct, why do a complete diagnosis when a simple brain scan is only needed? All you would have to see is if the person claiming gender dysphoria has the brain of a different sex; right???

The brain scan would confirm the diagnosis, similar to how an MRI confirms a diagnosis of a torn cartilage.

 

[crossfire]

If your link is correct, why do a complete diagnosis when a simple brain scan is only needed? All you would have to see is if the person claiming gender dysphoria has the brain of a different sex; right???

Do you want a person's doctor telling them: "According to your brain scan, you'd be better off as a woman?" How would you take that news if you received it?

 

[We Never Know]

Perhaps this will help you: the brains of transgender women are shifted towards the female brain compared to cis males.

Brain Sex in Transgender Women Is Shifted towards Gender Identity - PMC

Transgender people report discomfort with their birth sex and a strong identification with the opposite sex. The current study was designed to shed further light on the question of whether the brains of transgender people resemble their birth sex or ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

From your link....

"The brains of transgender women ranged between cisgender men and cisgender women (albeit still closer to cisgender men), and the differences to both cisgender men and to cisgender women were significant (p = 0.016 and p < 0.001, respectively). These findings add support to the notion that the underlying brain anatomy in transgender people is shifted away from their biological sex towards their gender identity."


So their brain is still closer to cisgender men but the study supports why they feel like women?

I don't get that. Their brain is closer to men's than womens but they feel like women?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

So their brain is still closer to cisgender men but the study supports why they feel like women?

You left out the test subjects had.not undergone any medical treatmemts and were living as men.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I'm saying if gender is based on your thoughts, and these thoughts vary from person to person, I don't see any meaning behind gender if defined this way; do you? If so, where is the meaning???

Do you really want to learn how meaning relate to objective, intersubjective and personal subjective? Or do you want to maintain that in effect meaning have to be objective in all cases?

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Nobody is suggesting they are.

You are, unless I misunderstood you here:

I don't think most people outside the medical community really care about those things, what I see most complaints coming from is when they are told they have to pretend as if a biological male can become a woman based strictly on what goes on inside of his head. That's what I hear most of the objections coming from.

Deciding factor? Deciding In what way?

How people treat them. Do you think people don't factor gender into how they are treated? Considering you seem to want people to be able to "recognize our differences due to biology," it would seem that you think biology should make a difference in how people are treated.

Nobody is talking about "advertising" their biology, just recognizing our differences due to biology; big difference.

Is it different? Let's try another way of putting it: You think people should publically show other people their biology?

 

[We Never Know]

You left out the test subjects had.not undergone any medical treatmemts and were living as men.

Didn't leave it out. I was addressing the study showed their brain was still closer to cisgender men, not cisgender women.

As the article said, "before hormone therapy in order to rule out any modifying effects of circulating sex steroids"

It would probably be pointless to do the study after hormone therapy since they wouldn't be able to rule out any effects of the therapy.

I think someone once said/claimed the opposite... that their brains were closer to female than male.

 

[icehorse]

You and I must live on totally different planets. And I work at a university, where respect and valuing of diversity is literally baked into the culture here. Hate and bigotry and prejudice and bullying are absolutely still a thing alongside all of that. Our own governor ruthlessly attacked diversity over the past year and destroyed extremely successful student retention programs for minority groups, in fact.

Can you say more about valuing diversity? Specifically, one could value diversity of skin color and culture, that seems like a good idea. But I wonder if your university also values diversity of ideas?

 

[icehorse]

Identifying as non-binary means that a person's gender identity does not fit within the traditional binary categories of male or female. Non-binary individuals may experience their gender identity as falling somewhere outside of or in between the male and female categories. This can include identifying as a combination of both genders, neither gender, a different gender entirely, or fluctuating between different gender identities.

The term "gender identity" has been discussed a lot in recent threads. When I've seen it used in legal settings, I've found the definitions for "gender identity" to usually be circular or so vague as to be unfalsifiable.

Can you define "gender identity"?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

The term "gender identity" has been discussed a lot in recent threads. When I've seen it used in legal settings, I've found the definitions for "gender identity" to usually be circular or so vague as to be unfalsifiable.

Can you define "gender identity"?

The problem is that your standard of in effect science is also subjective.
So without believing in that science must be used, can you give evidence as per your own standard that science must be used?

 

[icehorse]

Do those things require people should socially advertise their biology in this way? Like genitals, bone density and lung capacity are irrelevant to people existing in their everyday life. It may be relevant in contexts such as a doctor's office, the bedroom, or maybe in some places like sports, but why in the world should people generally care if a person has a penis, low bone density, Xy genetics, a particular balance of androgens, or a certain grip strength?

Women who are in circumstances where bigger, stronger humans might assault them, care a lot. As they should.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Women who are in circumstances where bigger, stronger humans might assault them, care a lot. As they should.

That is an emotion. We need science and correct definitions.

 

[icehorse]

Perhaps this will help you: the brains of transgender women are shifted towards the female brain compared to cis males.

Brain Sex in Transgender Women Is Shifted towards Gender Identity - PMC

Transgender people report discomfort with their birth sex and a strong identification with the opposite sex. The current study was designed to shed further light on the question of whether the brains of transgender people resemble their birth sex or ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I've heard this theory before, and while I remain open, I've never seen good evidence. This study does NOT provide good quality evidence.