Non-Binary

[mikkel_the_dane]

I've heard this theory before, and while I remain open, I've never seen good evidence. This study does NOT provide good quality evidence.

I need evidence that evidence can be good. As it stands, I will treat that as an emotion and thus subjective, relative and irrelevant. EVIDENCE for good!!!

 

[Kfox]

Look into support groups for stay at home dads if you think they no longer apply. They do. Likewise, men still get the raw end in custody because of gender stereotypes and norms.

You will always find cases where examples of sexism, racism, bigotry, and many other types of unfairness still exist, but that’s not because those things are accepted by mainstream society, it’s because there are still places where people with outdated unfair ideas that goes against mainstream society are still holding positions of power and use their power to spread their unfair views.

Ever hear of the restaurant Hooters?

Hooters is not an example of gender rolls, it’s an example of a business knowing on average males prefer “X” and females prefer “Y” so they provide “X” in an effort to attract men.

But people do agree like we do with language amd the many signs that navigate through our day.

If people with your ideas agree, then give me a definition of a woman that you guys agree on.

This stuff al being based on thoughts and feelings and social consensus makes none of it meaningless. To the contrary it's a part of what makes being humans so profound and amazing. We do stuff like this, amd we don't even generally ever think about it. How is tjat meaningless?

Imagine an imaginary tool called a “widget” where everybody had a different view of what a widget actually is. Some think it is a screw driver, some think it’s a wrench, some think it is a hammer, etc. etc. Now imagine I asked you to go to my tool box and hand me a widget. You would have no idea what I am asking for because the term widget is a meaningless description for a tool; agree?

 

[SalixIncendium]

Imagine an imaginary tool called a “widget” where everybody had a different view of what a widget actually is. Some think it is a screw driver, some think it’s a wrench, some think it is a hammer, etc. etc. Now imagine I asked you to go to my tool box and hand me a widget. You would have no idea what I am asking for because the term widget is a meaningless description for a tool; agree?

I would know exactly what the "widget" is because I would ask you, "Which one is the 'widget'?"

Can you imagine imagining an imaginary tool whose name came from one's imagination instead of from a tool that already exists?

 

[Kfox]

The brain scan would confirm the diagnosis, similar to how an MRI confirms a diagnosis of a torn cartilage.

If the MRI does not confirm a torn cartilage, they will not do surgery; right?

 

[Kfox]

Do you want a person's doctor telling them: "According to your brain scan, you'd be better off as a woman?" How would you take that news if you received it?

No; I want the doctor telling someone "according to your brain scan, you are still a woman so we will be giving you psychological treatment rather than medical treatment".

 

[Kfox]

You are, unless I misunderstood you here:

Most with your views recognize a difference between biology vs gender. The new use of pronouns are an indication of a change in gender via thoughts not magic.

How people treat them. Do you think people don't factor gender into how they are treated? Considering you seem to want people to be able to "recognize our differences due to biology," it would seem that you think biology should make a difference in how people are treated.

No; I believe men an women should be treated equally

Is it different? Let's try another way of putting it: You think people should publically show other people their biology?

No.

 

[Kfox]

I would know exactly what the "widget" is because I would ask you, "Which one is the 'widget'?"

You would need me to give a description of the tool I need because simply calling it a widget is meaningless; do you agree?

Can you imagine imagining an imaginary tool whose name came from one's imagination instead of from a tool that already exists?

My bad; I had no idea there were such a tool actually called a widget.

 

[SalixIncendium]

You would need me to give a description of the tool I need because simply calling it a widget is meaningless; do you agree?

Yes, unless I can identify all the other tools in the box and can identify the 'widget' by process of elimination.

 

[Kfox]

Yes, unless I can identify all the other tools in the box and can identify the 'widget' by process of elimination.

So that's what I meant when I said allowing each person to come up with their own personal definition of what it means to be a woman, makes the term woman meaningless as a description of gender

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

So that's what I meant when I said allowing each person to come up with their own personal definition of what it means to be a woman, makes the term woman meaningless as a description of gender

No, it makes it meaningless to you, because you want in effect a universal defintion of gender. The problem is that you wanting that, is not universal as it is you individually wanting it.
That makes the demand that it must be universal in effect false, because it is not a universal fact how humans think about gender. The evidence is not on your side, rather the observable state of facts as to how people claim gender how ever they do it, is that it is individual as based on how a given individual thinks/feels about it.

 

[crossfire]

No; I want the doctor telling someone "according to your brain scan, you are still a woman so we will be giving you psychological treatment rather than medical treatment".

So you want a mandatory brain scan before any gender-affirming treatment? Other forms of diagnosing gender dysphoria are unacceptable to you? Do you want to have the State mandate brain scans, or should this be a matter between doctor and patient?

 

[Kfox]

No, it makes it meaningless to you, because you want in effect a universal defintion of gender. The problem is that you wanting that, is not universal as it is you individually wanting it.
That makes the demand that it must be universal in effect false, because it is not a universal fact how humans think about gender. The evidence is not on your side, rather the observable state of facts as to how people claim gender how ever they do it, is that it is individual as based on how a given individual thinks/feels about it.

Gender has always been universal till recently. Never in the history of mankind has the idea that men can get pregnant been a serious idea till now.

 

[Kfox]

So you want a mandatory brain scan before any gender-affirming treatment? Other forms of diagnosing gender dysphoria are unacceptable to you? Do you want to have the State mandate brain scans, or should this be a matter between doctor and patient?

I'm saying if the claim were correct; (which I do not believe it is) they would be doing brain scans before doing surgery just to make sure it is actually gender dysphoria rather than just some kid having a bad day.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Gender has always been universal till recently. Never in the history of mankind has the idea that men can get pregnant been a serious idea till now.

That is sex, not gender.
The problem is that your rule is that - objective traits(sex) are subjective behaviours, thoughts and feelings(gender). There is no evidence for that as far as I can tell. If you can give evidence for that gender is universal and not just that some people believe that it is universal, I will listen to you.

 

[crossfire]

I'm saying if the claim were correct; (which I do not believe it is) they would be doing brain scans before doing surgery just to make sure it is actually gender dysphoria rather than just some kid having a bad day.

Exactly which surgeries are you referring to? Top surgery, bottom surgery, or both? Would this include young women who do not have gender dysphoria but want to have breast reductions or removals?

 

[SalixIncendium]

So that's what I meant when I said allowing each person to come up with their own personal definition of what it means to be a woman, makes the term woman meaningless as a description of gender

I don’t understand the analogy…or rather, the connection.

 

[McBell]

So that's what I meant when I said allowing each person to come up with their own personal definition of what it means to be a woman, makes the term woman meaningless as a description of gender

Are you also against genders other than man/woman?

Seems you argument is basically "i do not want any genders other than man/woman, and anything other than those two render the words completely meaningless."

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Women who are in circumstances where bigger, stronger humans might assault them, care a lot. As they should.

But how does advertising sex in this case work? There are plenty of individual females who are physically stronger than some individual men. While I will concede that women have a good reasons to be cautious around men given sexual assault rates, the perception of gender isn't where the danger lies. In other words, a person who may have a penis doesn't necessarily equal that they are more of a danger or even that their grip strength or bone density is higher. I don't see that as a valid reason people should advertise their biological sex.

 

[Kfox]

That is sex, not gender.

No; it’s both because gender has always been tied to sex.

The problem is that your rule is that - objective traits(sex) are subjective behaviours, thoughts and feelings(gender). There is no evidence for that as far as I can tell. If you can give evidence for that gender is universal and not just that some people believe that it is universal, I will listen to you.

Again; gender has always been tied to sex regardless of your thoughts, feelings, and behavior. A Tomboy female has always been considered a woman; a feminine male has always been considered a man. If you disagree, point to a time in history when it was not.

 

[Kfox]

Exactly which surgeries are you referring to? Top surgery, bottom surgery, or both? Would this include young women who do not have gender dysphoria but want to have breast reductions or removals?

Any surgery or medical procedure a person would get for being transgender