Non-Christians. Why do you care so much about Christians and Christianity?

[beenherebeforeagain]

As a general rule I do not debate religion be it with Christians, Muslims, Hindus or whatever. And, as a matter of fact, I have made clear my disapproval of one Jewish member of this forum whose whole reason d'etre seems to be to start threads here and on other forums disparaging Christianity.

The exception to my general rule is when either Jews or Judaism is misrepresented in a post or when a point being made relies on a mistranslation and/or misinterpretation of Jewish sources. When there is so much lack of knowledge among non-Jews about Jews and Judaism it would be a mistake to allow misinformation to go unchallenged and uncorrected.

This ^^, except instead of relation to Judaism, in relation to animism and paganism...and science...

 

[metis]

Yeah, metis is so old.... I mean mature....that he could say, "Before Abraham I am." and be telling the truth.

I see that rabbinic humor has not improved.

 

[Kenny]

That bolded, underlined, italicized bit above... take note of it... that I know of, ALMOST NONE of the other parishioners or attendees of any of the services I went to saw any of the things I did either. They were blinded to it by the very thing that brought them all together. It's the saddest of things, honestly. I take no pleasure in witnessing any of it. In fact it is a torturous endeavor to have to sit there while your faith in humanity is stuck down again and again and again. I know you don't believe me - which is your right, but I am being completely honest about my feelings and my reasoning for them.

Here's an attempt at a short list (and be sure this is barely anything at all... I could go on and on and on...):

• A "faith healer" shutting off his mic and taking a young man to the side to (basically) "coach" him when he denied having felt healed.
• Rumors that a man's finger literally grew back during an evening service - being spread by a pastor, and then when he brought up the evening on the next morning, he had a woman who claimed her back pains abated stand up (her back STILL bent like a shepherd's hook) before the congregation for applause. Where the hell was the guy whose finger grew back?! Why point out anyone at all if not him?
• A person escorted out (fairly roughly, because the person put up a fight) because their version of "speaking in tongues" came out in actual English, and people didn't like what they were saying
• An elderly couple who were told to tithe to the church in order to improve their (impoverished) lives - they did so, and when they came back a year later, no better off financially, and asked the church if it could help them out on their mortgage for the month, they were quickly and easily denied. The pastor wouldn't even look them in the eye afterward - he had literally told them that tithing would lead to them being repaid in multiples.
• A pastor thanking God for sending someone else's food (an accident by the wait-staff that he didn't correct!) to their table on his and his wife's anniversary out at a restaurant.
• A pastor taking advantage of his secular employer in such a way that a recording error had him getting a full paycheck for only putting in half the hours - continuing to do so after he found out and literally laugh about it.
• Cutting this list short (attempting) for brevity...

And tons of "lesser" things that are not necessarily of moral concern, but just plain ridiculous and intellectually vapid (WAY more of these examples, but again, trying to keep it somewhat brief):

• The pastor's wife of one church doing a sermon and basically stating she needs music to get her in the mood to pray and commune with God - how would you feel if we were friends and whenever you called I told you to hold on a few minutes while I got myself into the mood to talk to you?
• Pettiness to no end - people complaining about the music selection played by the "worship team", as if a personally tailored concert means anything when compared to the real reason they are supposed to be getting together.
• Heavy money spent on coffee for morning attendees - is this why you attend church? Is there no better use of this money?
• Another pastor's wife claiming God was weighing missions heavily on her heart... EXPENSIVE missions, which she and her husband struggled with - mostly his denying her based on (valid) monetary concerns, and arguments over such. She claimed that over a year later, she discovered that it was (no joke) actually the voice of Satan ("The Enemy") that had been trying to deceive her into thinking it was God, and that she was finally able to come to terms with not answering this "call".
• A parishioner standing up, ad-hoc/unscripted during a sermon to give a speech about the blessings one can receive with proper fidelity to the church (the sermon that day was about giving... that is... money). I was waiting for something fairly profound... instead the man started in about how he never thought he'd be able to buy this brand new car he had been wanting for $35,000, and finally he was able. That was it. Nothing else. And a hearty (if completely misguided) cheer went up from the crowd.

You want more, just ask. I have so much more it's terrible.

Oh... I'm SURE those things have happened. You name me ONE group of people where things like that don't happen... Tell me what profession you word in and I will give you your list too.

I know a Dentist that put gold crown on people that didn't need them... but it is hardly a representative of the profession.

So, I stand by what I said. I have been in multiple services, go to a church and I haven't seen that happen.

To paint the whole of the Christianity when you have some who are in the street rescuing sex-slaves, feeding the hungry, rescuing the child soldiers, educating the poor, housing and feeding them too, helping the drug addict, praying for the sick, building homes, rebuilding homes, taking care of orphans, having health clinics, opening hospitals, rescuing marriages, healing the broken hearted et al.

Well... it paints your comment as very small.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

To paint the whole of the Christianity when you have some who are in the street rescuing sex-slaves, feeding the hungry, rescuing the child soldiers, educating the poor, housing and feeding them too, helping the drug addict, praying for the sick, building homes, rebuilding homes, taking care of orphans, having health clinics, opening hospitals, rescuing marriages, healing the broken hearted et al.

Well... it paints your comment as very small.

Those things are done by the religious and non-religious alike. There are plenty of religious people who do good because there are plenty of people who do good.

 

[RabbiO]

I see that rabbinic humor has not improved.

It's the quality of the subject matter.

 

[metis]

It's the quality of the subject matter.

May hordes of biting fleas infest your armpits and groin.

 

[columbus]

May hordes of biting fleas infest your armpits and groin.

No wonder those ointments you try don't work.
Those aren't fleas.
Tom

 

[jonathan180iq]

The Christian framework is the predominant social fabric of our lives... Like anything else that directly influences my life, I need to know if it's worth a damn.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

From my perspective, the better question is why do Christians care so much about what I do and why do they loose sleep knowing those like me are gaining rights, liberties, and acceptance? I try not to care what someone else believes, but they kind of force into a position that necessitates caring when they are the ones who want it a legally protected right to discriminate against me, and some of my close friends. If Conservative Christians would concede and accept "live and let live" as policy and accept they share this amalgamation of a melting pot Secular society with many others who do not believe as they do, and if they stop trying to hijack science classes, I'd have not much to argue against outside their scripture. But that they try to take from their personal lives and their church and make it public policy is why I care.
Why don't these Christians act like more their Christ, the one they are supposed to be emulating?

 

[Kenny]

Those things are done by the religious and non-religious alike. There are plenty of religious people who do good because there are plenty of people who do good.

Won't argue that point for sure. My point was the "evil" picture the other poster put on all Christians.

 

[allfoak]

So much so that you spend hours here debating and arguing with them post after post after post.

(And yes, I realize that I do it myself and that people might expect my answer, but rather than possibly influencing the answers of others I'm going to wait with mine. )

.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

So much so that you spend hours here debating and arguing with them post after post after post.

(And yes, I realize that I do it myself and that people might expect my answer, but rather than possibly influencing the answers of others I'm going to wait with mine. )

.

Up front, I'm more than a non-Christian, I'm completely anti-revealed religion. The only reasonable alternative to my agnostic-deism is agnostic-atheism.

I engage Christians, including those in my own family whose Christian religion I left as a young adult, because I believe that Truth is the ultimate ideal/God, and the only pursuit that can lead individuals and humanity in general, to the best future possible--the aspects of Truth being: knowledge, justice, love beauty.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Won't argue that point for sure. My point was the "evil" picture the other poster put on all Christians.

And my point is that even if the influence of Christianity was entirely bad, we'd still see plenty of examples of Christians doing good things.

Remember that even a terrorist organization like Hezbollah has a charitable arm. The mere fact that charitable work happens in the name of an organization doesn't mean that the overall impact of that organization is necessarily positive.

 

[Tumah]

Because on reading the Bible, and seeing the things prophesied fulfilled, don't know what else anyone would do.

It'd be like someone standing on a train track in a tunnel, and seeing the light coming, wouldn't you tell the others heading into the tunnel?

I would be appreciative if someone forcefully pulled me off the train tracks and checked me into a psych ward.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

I would be appreciative if someone forcefully pulled me off the train tracks and checked me into a psych ward.

This would be what a great many Christians and others believe they are doing--saving everyone else for THEIR own good...whereas I am quite certain that they (The Christians, etc.) are the ones standing on the train tracks and are going to get run over...

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

To paint the whole of the Christianity when you have some who are in the street rescuing sex-slaves, feeding the hungry, rescuing the child soldiers, educating the poor, housing and feeding them too, helping the drug addict, praying for the sick, building homes, rebuilding homes, taking care of orphans, having health clinics, opening hospitals, rescuing marriages, healing the broken hearted et al.

All things that those people could have (and likely would have) had the inclination to do anyway. I understand that Christianity is the instrument by which those endeavors are funded - but it is the people involved who are "good" - Christianity is only their chosen expression of it.

You name me ONE group of people where things like that don't happen... Tell me what profession you word in and I will give you your list too.

And I understand that these types of people are everywhere. However, not all of them donned the metaphoric "mantle", took the oath, pledged servitude to the cause, and then trampled on the ideals of that cause time and time again - completely oblivious to the fact that they were even doing so. I submit that Christianity does not take to task the members of its congregations that fall down, and half the time doesn't even realize it has happened - or doesn't even view certain failures as failures - some failures on a human level are even lauded as complete successes. It is the organization I take issue with. It puts people into the role of "hypocrite", and even those people are assumed to be "good" on some level based on nothing more than the moniker "Christian" they have applied to themselves. It breeds people being quiet about idiocy just to save face, not rock the boat, remain "accepted."

 

[Kenny]

All things that those people could have (and likely would have) had the inclination to do anyway. I understand that Christianity is the instrument by which those endeavors are funded - but it is the people involved who are "good" - Christianity is only their chosen expression of it.

That is your viewpoint. Again, you are categorizing everyone in one big lump. I can give you countless amount of examples where it would violate your position.

And all of those people will say that Christianity is only their chosen expression of it but rather, it was because of the faith they placed in Christ that changed their direction.

And I am one of the multitude.

And I understand that these types of people are everywhere. However, not all of them donned the metaphoric "mantle", took the oath, pledged servitude to the cause, and then trampled on the ideals of that cause time and time again - completely oblivious to the fact that they were even doing so.

I think this is irrelevant. Every doctor took a hypocratic oath too. Every teacher dons a mantle. And the list goes on.

I submit that Christianity does not take to task the members of its congregations that fall down, and half the time doesn't even realize it has happened - or doesn't even view certain failures as failures - some failures on a human level are even lauded as complete successes. It is the organization I take issue with. It puts people into the role of "hypocrite", and even those people are assumed to be "good" on some level based on nothing more than the moniker "Christian" they have applied to themselves. It breeds people being quiet about idiocy just to save face, not rock the boat, remain "accepted."

I will completely agree that every time a person who claims to be a Christian or is one and tramples on the oath hurts them, those in Christendom, seekers and the non-seekers.

However, I will stand on that the VAST majority take it seriously and live it seriously. Publicity does have the capacity to make it look different. How many newspapers actually point out the good? It doesn't sell!

And I'm not buying your position either.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

And all of those people will say that Christianity is only their chosen expression of it but rather, it was because of the faith they placed in Christ that changed their direction.

And this, right here, is part of the tragedy in my eyes. Humans who can't be good, or do right by one another without this "faith". It is much like the person who asks the nonbeliever "Without God, why aren't you just out there killing and stealing? What stops you?" The person asking not even taking the time to realize what statement they are making about themselves as they say it - that they would be out "killing and stealing" if it weren't for "God." That's a very sad statement of their affairs indeed. And again - said without even realizing what is being said.

And I am one of the multitude.

Based on what I just wrote above - this is nothing to be proud of. Quite the opposite. If Christ is the only thing keeping you from whatever "direction" you hold in low regard... then what does that say about your, personal resolve? Have you no strength of your own? No capacity for goodness?

I think this is irrelevant. Every doctor took a hypocratic oath too. Every teacher dons a mantle. And the list goes on.

And? They too should be taken to task for any and all of their own failures - and by the rest of their "kind" most especially. The issues I bring to bear are admittedly not exclusive to Christianity. Does that make any of them non-issues? What I was saying is that, taking that oath had better mean something - if it doesn't, and doesn't to enough members of an "accredited" group, then that group stands to lose its accreditation in all people's eyes - and for good reason. Part of my point was that anyone who hasn't made such an oath is at least not a hypocrite - however much they may prove themselves unworthy in other ways - and they become just that, a person, to be judged on their own merits... not the "supposed" merits of the title that they have bestowed upon themselves.

However, I will stand on that the VAST majority take it seriously and live it seriously.

This hasn't been my experience at all. Again... don't believe me. I know what I know. Don't like the negative publicity? Take it up with your cohorts.

And I'm not buying your position either.

Take it up with my cohorts. Oh wait... I have none.

 

[Segev Moran]

So much so that you spend hours here debating and arguing with them post after post after post.

(And yes, I realize that I do it myself and that people might expect my answer, but rather than possibly influencing the answers of others I'm going to wait with mine. )

.

For me, its due to the fact that it is a religion based on an active god

 

[james bond]

Thanks for this, Skwim. I doubt it will change the internet atheists though because atheism is part of the liberal creed. If I was an atheist, I would call myself jamesbondburnsinhell and be done with it.