"non-denominational" churches

[Quiddity]

Yeah, I think I'll stick to the Scriptures and let the Holy Spirit work his wonders in me.

NetDoc, are you sure you're not confusing the Holy Spirit for last nights spicy food you had?
"Burning of the bossom" as Mormons call it.

~Victor

 

[Scuba Pete]

True but what if Thomas had blidn faith in someone BESIDES Jesus? Wouldn't be good would it? You need to have a reason for your faith.

My friend, do you comprehend that Christianity is a "revealed" faith? If so, what do you think that actually means?

My interpretation of Christianity COMES from the Bible! How do you know I'm wrong and you are right? You don't. How can we tell who is right? Who is the final authority?

Your first statement is not accurate. Your interpretation of Christianity comes from the priests and ultimately the Pope. There are MANY things that you practice that you can not find in scripture. The Catholic Church has long maintained that sola scriptura is a fallacy. Are you now telling me differently? As for the authority of the Scriptures.

II Peter 1: 12 So I will always remind you of these things, even though you know them and are firmly established in the truth you now have. 13 I think it is right to refresh your memory as long as I live in the tent of this body, 14 because I know that I will soon put it aside, as our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. 15 And I will make every effort to see that after my departure you will always be able to remember these things.


16 We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For he received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased." 18 We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain. 19 And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. NIV

Apparently, Peter's efforts panned out and we have his epistles.

Goshdarnit, WHY!?Why are you sticking to the Scriptures!? Would you please give me an answer there? If you don't that is fine, but then I do not see why you are on a religious discussion forum...

I will answer this with scripture:

II Timothy 3:10 You, however, know all about my teaching, my way of life, my purpose, faith, patience, love, endurance, 11 persecutions, sufferings—what kinds of things happened to me in Antioch, Iconium and Lystra, the persecutions I endured. Yet the Lord rescued me from all of them. 12 In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, 13 while evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15 and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. NIV

 

[Scuba Pete]

NetDoc, are you sure you're not confusing the Holy Spirit for last nights spicy food you had?

Sounds like the detractors the Apostles had:

Acts 2:13 Some, however, made fun of them and said, "They have had too much wine." NIV

 

[Uncertaindrummer]

My friend, do you comprehend that Christianity is a "revealed" faith? If so, what do you think that actually means?

Yes it is revealed. So why don't you tell me what revealed it to you?

Your first statement is not accurate. Your interpretation of Christianity comes from the priests and ultimately the Pope. There are MANY things that you practice that you can not find in scripture. The Catholic Church has long maintained that sola scriptura is a fallacy. Are you now telling me differently? As for the authority of the Scriptures.

NO! I can look in the Bible and find everything you don't want to see. I can show you the mass, I can show you Purgatory, I can show the the priesthood, I can show you Baptismal regeneration and Baptism for infants. You might not agree with my interpretation, but I can. You are basically saying "You are wrong, I am right" with no basis for doing so. WHO IS THE FINAL AUTHORITY? The Bible cannot interpret itself.

20Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. NIV

There you go! No prophecy of Scripture is a mater of private intperpretatino, and yet you are PRIVATELY interpreting everything! You claim it is the Holy Spirit? Then why has He abandoned me and only gone to you? Why did He pick YOU out of the THOUSANDS of protestant denominations? The quick answer; HE DIDN'T. You are using the Holy Spirit's guidance as a crutch, and yet ANYONE can use it. If I claimed that the Holy Spirit was guiding me, you would not believe it. So why should I believe you? The Holy Spirit cannot lead men into different directions. I find it highly arrogant that you believe the Holy Spirit is ONLY leading youy.

I will answer this with scripture:

NO! You cannot prove Scripture from Scripture! It is impossible! If I wrote a book all about how Satanism was correct, and then at the end said "everything in this book is true", would that be sufficient? NO. STOP this circular logic which is unworthy of any discussion.

 

[Uncertaindrummer]

Sounds like the detractors the Apostles had:

Acts 2:13 Some, however, made fun of them and said, "They have had too much wine." NIV

Yes and you sound like one of the false preachers Jesus mentioned. Does thta change anything? No. Mormons, Muslism, Jehovas Witnesses, and tons of other religious groups claim this inward "feeling" you claim. Why shouldn't I believe THEM? I shouldn't, and you shouldn't try and use this "feeling" as a reason to contradict Scripture's warning against private interpretation, and the traditions of men. You are contradicting those conemnations, using the "Holy Spirit told me to" line does not change that.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Ah... so now you are accusing me of "private interpretation" when it should be obvious that I use scripture to illuminate scripture.

So trot out the scriptures that support a priesthood that does not marry.

Trot out the scriptures that support infant baptism.

Trot out those that indicate a purgatory.

I hope that these are explicit and not merely extrapolations designed to force the Bible to quasi-spport what you believe.

Now, please ask me to support something that I believe in, and I will do it.

 

[Scuba Pete]

BTW, you accuse me of "private interpretation" several times. I don't think you know what you are asserting here.

As for this:

Then why has He abandoned me and only gone to you?

I cannot answer that for you, but would encourage you to figure it out pronto!

 

[Quiddity]

BTW, you accuse me of "private interpretation" several times. I don't think you know what you are asserting here.

As for this:
I cannot answer that for you, but would encourage you to figure it out pronto!

ND, what is private interpretation to you? It's someone who interprets without the Spirit, right? In all seriousness this just turns into a finger pointing match. Where everyone claiming to be led by the Spirit and not getting anywhere because they FEEL it. Didn't God see this coming?
It's not that we don't believe in this NetDoc, but it is only the RCC that has a solution to this "lead by the Spirit" chaos. If you want to sit there and say "well I have it and you guys don't". You will get no where with anyone.

~Victor

 

[Uncertaindrummer]

Ah... so now you are accusing me of "private interpretation" when it should be obvious that I use scripture to illuminate scripture.

You can't. It is imposible. Just as Atheism is intenable because something cannot create itself, the Bible cannot interpret itself.

So trot out the scriptures that support a priesthood that does not marry.

I could, but I do not need to. That is a discipline of the Church, somethign that could easily change, and there are exceptions to it.

Trot out the scriptures that support infant baptism.

Jesus contionuously told the Children to come to him, and that to enter the Kingdom of Heaven we must be like Children. Also, various times people and all their HOUSEHOLDS were baptized. Doe sthis prove infant Baptism? No, not really. But the Bible surely does not condemn it.

Trot out those that indicate a purgatory.

1 Cor 3: 10 -15

I hope that these are explicit and not merely extrapolations designed to force the Bible to quasi-spport what you believe.

Hmm, that is funny... Your belief that we go by the Bible alone is nowhere explicit in Scripture. Why should my beliefs be?

Now, please ask me to support something that I believe in, and I will do it.

Support your belief that the Bible is inspired.

 

[Uncertaindrummer]

BTW, you accuse me of "private interpretation" several times. I don't think you know what you are asserting here.

Oh but I do. I am asserting you are interpeting Scripture privately--which Scripture condemns.

As for this:
I cannot answer that for you, but would encourage you to figure it out pronto!

You are very arrogant. To think that you believe you are the only one who has the Holy Spirit. That is sickening, I am sorry. This kind of arrogance is clearly condemned in Scripture. Do you remember the Pharisee praying, thanking God he was not the Tax collector? Maybe you should go read that passage again.

 

[Scuba Pete]

You know Victor..

I haven't said this:

"well I have it and you guys don't"

But that doesn't seem to stop you from ascribing this to me.

James 1:22Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. 23 Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror 24 and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. 25 But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it—he will be blessed in what he does. NIV

If you want to learn how to understand, this is it: Just do it!

Can differences exist?

I Corinthians 11:17 In the following directives I have no praise for you, for your meetings do more harm than good. 18 In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it. 19 No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval. NIV

But there is nothing in that scripture about the "church" dictating what YOU have to believe. Now how does God show his approval???

I would suggest that the fruits of the Spirit might be a good place to start. What do you think?

 

[Scuba Pete]

Doe sthis prove infant Baptism? No, not really.

And you accuse ME of a private interpretation of the scriptures? This is merely extrapolation. BTW, since Peter tells them to REPENT and be BAPTISED (Acts 2:38), how do these little tykes repent?

I Corinthians 3:10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14 If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames. NIV

Did I miss it? I don't see purgatory mentioned here. Maybe it's the wrong passage?

Your belief that we go by the Bible alone is nowhere explicit in Scripture.

I didn't say in the Bible alone, though I am accused of it. I do believe in the Spirit as the counselor for ALL Christians.

But I see NO WHERE that any apostle tells us that the church can usurp what scriptures have to say. I only see the opposite.

Romans 15:1 We who are strong ought to bear with the failings of the weak and not to please ourselves. 2 Each of us should please his neighbor for his good, to build him up. 3 For even Christ did not please himself but, as it is written: "The insults of those who insult you have fallen on me." 4 For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.
5 May the God who gives endurance and encouragement give you a spirit of unity among yourselves as you follow Christ Jesus, 6 so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. NIV

 

[Quiddity]

I haven't said this:

I never said you did. I attached it to you because you had the idea that we follow men and you follow the Holy Spirit. As I said, this turns into a finger pointing match.

Can differences exist?

I Corinthians 11:17 In the following directives I have no praise for you, for your meetings do more harm than good. 18 In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it. 19 No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval. NIV

How far do you take these differences ND? Can we disagree on almost everything from the resurection to whether God exist or not? Is this how you interpret this?

But there is nothing in that scripture about the "church" dictating what YOU have to believe. Now how does God show his approval???

Sure it does read the Council of Jerusalem NetDoc (Acts 15). Here let me paste it for you:

The Jerusalem Council
6Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter. 7And when there had been much dispute, (Doesn't sound like they were agreeing) Peter rose up and said to them: "Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, (talking about himself) that by my mouth (who's mouth? Why not OUR mouth?) the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. (At this point he begins talking about the whole group) 8So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they."
12Then all the multitude kept silent and listened....

This is also how the RCC solves doctrinal disputes.

~Victor

 

[Scuba Pete]

You are very arrogant. To think that you believe you are the only one who has the Holy Spirit. That is sickening, I am sorry.

Am I arogant because I don't ascribe to your beliefs? You don't even know me and yet have no compunction about passing judgement about my humility.

Now for you OWN edification... go back and find where I said that I "believe you are the only one who has the Holy Spirit". I look forward to an apology when you realise that you are in error IF you have any humility. I will expect only blameshifting and no apology if you are merely arrogant or petulant.

I'm sorry Scott, I expected more out of your "cavalry" than misrepresentations and anger.

 

[Quiddity]

I'm sorry Scott, I expected more out of your "cavalry" than misrepresentations and anger.

ND, aside from my silly statement of hot sauce have I disrespected you?

~Victor

 

[Scuba Pete]

How far do you take these differences ND? Can we disagree on almost everything from the resurection to whether God exist or not? Is this how you interpret this?

Personally (good question, BTW), I feel that unless God spelled it out, we can disagree on it. If God (through the Scriptures) tells us to do it, then we should follow that. Remember we really only have two "biggies":

1) Love God

2) Love everyone else.

ALSO... they did not call themselves the "council at Jerusalem". That was added far later.

BTW, the elders decide how we do things in my church too! Even if I disagree with them, I still do things THEIR way.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Not nearly as much as UD...

In fact, I find your counterpoints very refreshing!

 

[Quiddity]

Personally (good question, BTW), I feel that unless God spelled it out, we can disagree on it. If God (through the Scriptures) tells us to do it, then we should follow that. Remember we really only have two "biggies":

1) Love God

2) Love everyone else.

ALSO... they did not call themselves the "council at Jerusalem". That was added far later.

BTW, the elders decide how we do things in my church too! Even if I disagree with them, I still do things THEIR way.

So you can agree on almost everything then and be ok?
Why do you submit to your leaders if you have the Holy Spirit and the Bible? What do you get from that?

~Victor

 

[Scuba Pete]

UD...

How did I forget THIS scripture???

I Corinthians 4:6 Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, "Do not go beyond what is written." Then you will not take pride in one man over against another. 7 For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not? NIV

Why do you submit to your leaders if you have the Holy Spirit and the Bible? What do you get from that?

ANOTHER great question! Here is the scriptural answer:

Hebrews 13:15 Through Jesus, therefore, let us continually offer to God a sacrifice of praise—the fruit of lips that confess his name. 16 And do not forget to do good and to share with others, for with such sacrifices God is pleased. 17 Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you. NIV

 

[glasgowchick]

Its obvious why you left the catholic church

Is that so, your really don't know anything about me,so stop trying to judge me as a person..Like I have said,instead of saying what is not there try and see what is there..

do we make statues yes. to remember people

Guess thats not in the bible either..

Exodus 25:18-20

I agree with all that is said there but who told them to to this? who authority did they have ? The Lords ? Would that be the same Lord that forbids us to make for ourselves Idols..

Do we pray to them

Let me rephrase that..Why do you kneel infront of a statue to pray...They cannot hear you..Why would you kneel and pray infront of the statue in the first place so no I don't understand if you would like to explain, I pray to God in Jesus name..

you still havent explained why you believe it in the first place

You know the more you harp on about this, it's starting to sound like your wanting me to bow down to the church before you will except anything I say from Scripture..I feel I have already answered your question as to why I believe the Bible is the writen word of God, However You believe it is the word of God, Right ? That won't change what is written, Im not asking you to listen to me so there shouldn't be a problem on why I believe the bible..The fact is you have your reasons for believing it, is that not Good enough, would me having the same reasons as you change Scripture..No It Would not...When God says Do Not make images or molten Idols, was he kidding on..When God says Clearly in Scripture " Do Not"... "you must not" Then It is him we have to listen too and obey his commandments..Something you seem to chise to ignore..

I don't see anywhere in Scripture the word "Trinity" either but that doesn't stop you from believign that?

And it is obvious why you left the Catholic Church. You obviously did not understand it and DO not understand it. Anyone who thinks Catholics worship idols has NO knowledge of Catholicism at ALL. Do we make statues? Yes. To remember people. Do we pray to them? HECK NO! That is like me sayign that you pray to a BIBLE because you kneel while reading it in a church or something. Also, how about these Bible verses (and by the way, I still see no reason to lsiten to your Bible verses because, you still haven't explained to me why you believe in it in the FIRST place).

Exodus 25:18-20
Make two cherubim of beaten gold for the two ends of the propitiatory, fastening them so that one cherub springs direct from each end. The cherubim shall have their wings spread out above, covering the propitiatory with them; they shall be turned toward each other, but with their faces looking toward the propitiatory.
1 Kings 7: 23-29
The sea was then cast; it was made with a circular rim, and measured ten cubits across, five in height, and thirty in circumference.
Under the brim, gourds encircled it, ten to the cubit all the way around; the gourds were in two rows and were cast in one mold with the sea. This rested on twelve oxen, three facing north, three facing west, three facing south, and three facing east, with their haunches all toward the center, where the sea was set upon them. It was a handbreadth thick, and its brim resembled that of a cup, being lily-shaped. Its capacity was two thousand measures. Ten stands were also made of bronze, each four cubits long, four wide, and three high. When these stands were constructed, panels were set within the framework. On the panels between the frames there were lions, oxen, and cherubim; and on the frames likewise, above and below the lions and oxen, there were wreaths in relief. And there are others. So why do not YOU have statues? The Bible does. OH wait, thats right, you still aren't sure why you believe in the Bible...