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Non-existence vs an unknown afterlife

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
By resurrection, I mean the return of the person who died to life. Jehovah can do this, however He puts the molecules together and restores body and mind.
Jehovah does not regrow the limbs of amputees. Does he? So, why should I believe that he will put together my (or other) molecules to restore my body and mind? Do you have any proof or just talk, talk and talk (non-sense).
“The immortality of the spirit is mentioned in the Holy Books; it is the fundamental basis of the divine religions. Now punishments and rewards are said to be of two kinds: first, the rewards and punishments of this life; second, those of the other world. But the paradise and hell of existence are found in all the worlds of God, whether in this world or in the spiritual heavenly worlds. Gaining these rewards is the gaining of eternal life. Some Answered Questions, p. 223

“Likewise, the rewards of the other world are the eternal life which is clearly mentioned in all the Holy Books, the divine perfections, the eternal bounties and everlasting felicity….The rewards of the other world are peace, the spiritual graces, the various spiritual gifts in the Kingdom of God, the gaining of the desires of the heart and the soul, and the meeting of God in the world of eternity.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 224-225
You mean what is written in the books is God's own truth? Yeah, it is the fundamental basis on which a false castle can be built. It is the snake-oil seller's blurb. The questions are not answered till you show the evidence. Where is the evidence?
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
By resurrection, I mean the return of the person who died to life. Jehovah can do this, however He puts the molecules together and restores body and mind.
Resurrection: the act of bringing something that had disappeared or ended back into use or existence http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/resurrection

The Bible does not say that God brings people back from a state of Decomposition. That belief came about because of a misinterpretation of scriptures. I believe that Paul was talking about a spiritual resurrection, not a physical one.

God made the natural laws, and Decomposition is one of the natural laws. Bodies die and decompose and the soul (spirit) then passes from this world into another world. The man himself continues to live since man is not a man because of his body but because of his spirit, for it is the spirit that thinks in man, and thought is what constitutes man.

I believe that the death of man is merely his soul passing from one world into another and when the soul passes from this world into the spiritual world it takes on a new form comprised of spiritual elements. Since there is nothing physical (e.g., oxygen, water, food) in the spiritual world (heaven) a physical body cannot exist there and is of no use to anyone. I also believe that Jesus is alive in heaven in a spiritual body that is immortal, not alive in a physical body.

421. When the body is no longer able to perform the bodily functions in the natural world that correspond to the spirit’s thoughts and affections, which the spirit has from the spiritual world, man is said to die. This takes place when the respiration of the lungs and the beatings of the heart cease. But the man does not die; he is merely separated from the bodily part that was of use to him in the world, while the man himself continues to live. It is said that the man himself continues to live since man is not a man because of his body but because of his spirit, for it is the spirit that thinks in man, and thought with affection is what constitutes man. Evidently, then, the death of man is merely his passing from one world into another. And this is why in the Word in its internal sense “death” signifies resurrection and continuation of life. Heaven and Hell, p. 351
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Jehovah does not regrow the limbs of amputees. Does he? So, why should I believe that he will put together my (or other) molecules to restore my body and mind? Do you have any proof or just talk, talk and talk (non-sense).
Glad you showed up, I was about to lose my mind. I guess God heard me screaming for help. :D
This is the complete nonsense of Christianity, absolute insanity.
Of course they do not have any proof, it is just a belief.......

They just cannot FACE the FACT that when the body dies, it is DEAD forever.
Bodies do not rise from graves years after they were buried and come back to life.
Everything that was written in the Bible about graves and life and death refers tom SPIRITUAL graves and SPIRITUAL life and death, not to physical graves and physical life and death.

Jesus makes it very clear that only spiritual life is important; the physical body is not important,

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
Yet the Christians worship (what they believe is) the resurrected physical body of Jesus and they believe they will get a body like he had after Jesus returns. All these beliefs came about from a misinterpretation of scriptures.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
This is the complete nonsense of Christianity, absolute insanity.
Of course they do not have any proof, it is just a belief ..
"SPIRITUAL graves and SPIRITUAL life and death"
And yeah, you have of your 19th Century uneducated (as you said) Iranian preacher.
Wonderful, spiritual graves. The real spiritual grave is believing in unevidenced nonsense.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
And yeah, you have of your 19th Century uneducated (as you said) Iranian preacher.
Wonderful, spiritual graves. The real spiritual grave is believing in unevidenced non-sense.
And yeah, it is up to you to decide which one makes more sense to you, dead bodies rising from graves or souls in spiritual graves coming back to life. Of course, it would help to understand what that means, and that's why we have scriptures that explain it. ;)
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I would accept that as the reality as well. And what is your point? That they still exist even though they don't worry or think about things? To a conscious being (like yourself) would you guess that "being" a sun would be any different than oblivion as compared to your state of consciousness now? Also... how exactly does one "become" a sun? In other words - how exactly does one "become" anything else at all? I understand that the constituent parts of your current body go on to become all sorts of parts for other objects and things. Do you believe those individual parts and parcels (such as a molecule of water that was once part of your body) carry some part of you with them? Careful now... because you currently expel molecules of water, and skin cells loaded with atoms of carbon and other elements ALL THE TIME. Do you sense "yourself" in those molecules and dead cells as they become dispersed across the face of the Earth? Well? Do you?
I know I am alive. The sun doesn't know it exists. That is my point.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Jehovah does not regrow the limbs of amputees. Does he? So, why should I believe that he will put together my (or other) molecules to restore my body and mind? Do you have any proof or just talk, talk and talk (non-sense).
You mean what is written in the books is God's own truth? Yeah, it is the fundamental basis on which a false castle can be built. It is the snake-oil seller's blurb. The questions are not answered till you show the evidence. Where is the evidence?
God can do miracles.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
I know I am alive. The sun doesn't know it exists. That is my point.
But what does this say about existence vs. non-existence of a human being's consciousness/awareness after death?

What I believe we can infer from the idea that the sun does not realize it exists, is that a human being devoid of consciousness would also not realize it exists. For example... a dead body probably is not aware of its existence. It still exists, but it is no longer the person it once was, nor does it seem to have any wherewithal whatsoever. To the point that while the constituent parts that make up a human body may still be present after the human does what we call "dying," those parts do nothing to foster the overall awareness of the being any longer. All observable evidence seems to point to this being the case.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
But what does this say about existence vs. non-existence of a human being's consciousness/awareness after death?

What I believe we can infer from the idea that the sun does not realize it exists, is that a human being devoid of consciousness would also not realize it exists. For example... a dead body probably is not aware of its existence. It still exists, but it is no longer the person it once was, nor does it seem to have any wherewithal whatsoever. To the point that while the constituent parts that make up a human body may still be present after the human does what we call "dying," those parts do nothing to foster the overall awareness of the being any longer. All observable evidence seems to point to this being the case.
Because we have consciousness, that means we can wonder how we got here -- why we're alive, etc. Suns, moons, and stars don't do that.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
And yeah, it is up to you to decide which one makes more sense to you, dead bodies rising from graves or souls in spiritual graves coming back to life. Of course, it would help to understand what that means, and that's why we have scriptures that explain it. ;)
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You will have the evidence after you die.
No evidence. Snake-oil seller's talk.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
If humans today just lived, said I owned 2 human being parents as humans, who had sex. Sperm in a male body, ovary in a female body, he would state I came out of an ovary as owned by my Human Being Mother.

If he were rational.

He could also do an animal comparison for one reason. Historically before ICE cooled the Earth gases again, seeing he said science, as God concepts changed life on Earth and invented the giant life...and then suddenly in ICE, frozen water, the gases cool, water remains cooled and he is mainly a water body.

Would he think today looking back at information and history, that he transmigrated and then re manifested in the presence of ICE?

Maybe he did believe it.

Yet science says animals the dinosaurs own shared historic information with animals today.

So we can only claim in an ICED life saving that we came into our own life after animals.

Each animal manifests into its own life body as its multi ended life, all beings present. So we know that we cannot manifest beyond the animal from an animal.

So science said I think APES had sex, owned a mutation, human baby was that mutation and then grew up separated from that animal body having had sex.

Nowhere in science does science claim manifested form.

For even 12 December end of year SEA of the SON says ICE returns allows a stable Earth animal life and human baby life to be born. Yet that act is HUMAN SEX.

Animals therefore proved to us already that we did not transmigrate after being burnt/self combusted in first Earth science, and went to Hell by a scientific occult human being male preaching of his own human advice. For you cannot talk about the spirit of a human going to Hell....which is mainly water and oxygen unless the atmospheric gas mass did. Seeing we use it to remain alive.

Common sense really.

So if you ended in self combustion and said ashes to ashes and dust to dust, that scientific God reasoning said mass changed into dust whilst bio form changed into piles of ashes. And we cannot come back from being a pile of ashes.

Then you would ask, is the history eternal real, as a place with spirit bodies.

Seeing humans claim, when I DIE, I lose my physical body, it decomposes and off gases....the energy of light is a gas so my spirit goes back to be with the heavens in death. So how do I own any other life form?

The answer is, of course you do, the body from which you were sent out from was the eternal, and you came into the atmosphere only after it had filled in empty space.

And that portion of our spirit was always there, always had been there, spirit is the owner of the reason creation was caused as a loss from its body.

The reason we know, for human memory has our parents spirit coming out of the eternal spirit after the newly formed life spirit bodies of animals when ICE cooled the Earth heavens back to the atmosphere that we use to live in. So we returned/reincarnated back into form...with a self imposed message, if only our parents had not returned to SIN....the body of God O the Earth and had sex......the non continuance of humans would have been true.

We do not tell stories or claim that we came from somewhere else as consciousness unless it was real. The argument is what place was it.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
No evidence. Snake-oil seller's talk.
Some things make sense to me, others don't. For instance, it makes sense that we wonder what happens when we die. It also makes sense to me that flowers, the planets, lions, snakes (and oil) do not wonder what happens when we die. It doesn't make sense when someone tells me that a lion could be a reincarnation.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Some things make sense to me, others don't. For instance, it makes sense that we wonder what happens when we die. It also makes sense to me that flowers, the planets, lions, snakes (and oil) do not wonder what happens when we die. It doesn't make sense when someone tells me that a lion could be a reincarnation.
Sure, it does not make sense. That is why I do not believe in any such thing. Basically, I do not even believe even in the existence of soul. What happens after death is an absolute no brainer. Mind/brain goes dead like fused bulb; and the atoms and molecules in the body go through chemical recycling. I do not know what is so mysterious about it. Those who analyze the phenomenon well, understand, if not - they believe in superstitious things. Those who do not have the power to think up to this level, animals and humans, they too journey through life in their own way.
 

Roguish

Member
Then god is at fault for standing by and doing nothing about it. If a cop just stood by and watched while a hoodlum robbed a grandma of her purse, the cop would be at fault for just standing by and doing nothing when he had the power to stop the robbery, no?

The cop and hoodlum analogy is not adequate. The former employee who still has the passwords, that's a better analogy, see above. Evil is an employee who leaves his employer (God) and then abuses the knowledge he acquired earlier (the passwords) to hack the system (Creation). Is the old employer at fault? Hardly. But even if you feel that he is, what of it? The situation doesn't change because you think it's unfair or incorrect. God isn't under an obligation to live up to your (or my) ideas of what's fair.

The bible is the instruction manual of life, right? What happens if that instruction manual doesn't represent the product in front of you? You can't just say it's the product's fault for not representing the instruction manual. It seems the instruction manual is insufficient for explaining the product.

Apparently you are under the impression that I am presenting some sort of Bible-based argument? I don't know where you got that impression because I never mentioned the Bible once in this thread. But to address your suggestion that the Bible is an instruction manual for life, well, under the circumstances of the current world, it's a rather incomplete one, wouldn't you say? The Bible was entirely written in a pre-technological world, and does not take any of the utter madness of the modern world into account.

I would invite you to entertain the idea that maybe the motivation for understanding, at least in my case, isn't in pride. I've seen some bad stuff, as have we all, and knowledge helps you fight that stuff. It's a tool, not a point of pride. Learning things can be fun at times, like when you learn about ancient societies, but ultimately learning extra knowledge is just a fun passtime, nothing more.

Even the greatest knowledge (in the sense of mental understanding) will not set you free, though it can certainly point you in the right direction. In the more advanced stages of your path to escape though, attachment knowledge (mental understanding) becomes a problem, because such attachment prevents the Mindspace from closing. It's like trying to close you car door with your leg still dangling out. It ain't gonna work.

Fused State... what is this, and where can I observe this Fused State in nature outside of the context of your religious concepts?

Asking where you can observed the Fused State... hehe, well I must say that's a first for me, to have someone ask that question. We're having a theological discussion here, yes? If all you acknowledge is tangible physical objects and creatures, I wonder why you even join a thread called "Non-existence and afterlife". But you're free to, of course. Post away.

God created the rules for existance. He can see all and do all, no? Why doesn't he do something about satan?

Who said God can do all? I certainly didn't. Or even if He can do all, why do you assume that what He actually does do will correspond to what you or I think He should do?

Ah, I see. It does tend to confuse things, though.

Calling Evil "Satan" is hardly confusing. But we can call it "Jimmy the Dude" if that makes you feel better.

How could Satan compete with an All-Powerful God? If you believe Satan has more power than God, then you have just demoted God to less than All-Powerful.

Whoever said God was all powerful? I didn't, at least not in the sense that you seem to be using the term. It's a strange notion anyway. If God was all powerful in the sense of always controlling everything, then each of us would also always be under God's control, right? But clearly we have our own power of intention.

Furthermore, whoever said that Satan is competing with God? An employee who quits his job and then sabotages his old employer's work by abusing the knowledge he acquired when he still had the job, is not competing with the employer. Rather, he is intentionally ruining the employer's Work.
 
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rational experiences

Veteran Member
Science in a male group discussion says in conditions occult, about spirit and consciousness that his personal conscious advice existed knowing and advising before he ever did and named it God.

The concept for science is circular O, a never ending inference, never broken, held and called it light.

Yet gases burning own the presence light by the active burning process...that removes energy.

Then he claims but energy is eternal, energy existed before I did and energy is spirit and consciousness.

Yet before his own self in the past, several times he owned/invented human technologies for humans, by humans and infers all information science to its pre existence before he even existed his own self.

So then claims because he thought about what existed before he did that it owned thinking.

I would call that a mental health condition my self.

For that is what he is doing today claiming I invented all naming themes and theories for God, before, so then claims science as God told him how he got invented.

As science is not discussing creation for creation by the concept O light, his living condition to be conscious O is a non broken event. Where the theme never ending is in his own mind psyche, the statements for SCIENCE.

Consciousness, in self presence was the actual spiritual human self teaching against self existing versus occult mental health conditions. Thinking of reactions in natural states in huge bodies and in a massive spatial condition then claiming he can copy them in a machine reaction. As if he personally is the Creator.

And we do have males today claiming that they are God personally, that God is a male, they read male God inferences from a book written by humans and then claim self sane in science theories.

Consciousness is self owned, human, it is self expressed, human. Animals own a form of conscious expression yet scientists know that an animal does not express science themes...as the conscious expression they claim is less than their own supposedly in a string to know information to pass that information onto a human.

So when you do a study on human reasoning about why everyone no longer owns the same biologist DNA Genetic study that said all humans came from a common DNA human Father and a common DNA human Mother, then science, the occult/UFO extra attack, ground hits, incoming change by forces....is that answer.

Everyone seems to overlook that machines factually as matter and mass owned a huge powerful vacuum cooling condition historically as forces that owned the presence of mass and matter in form. Humans use a very powerful artificial built machine mass owning that natural spatial vacuum interaction already to have presence of mass to manipulate.

It is why science lies to self in human life, for it is not using consciousness, it is using destructive information, why they attacked life. For life is not a science invention by string information by thinking about ideas together. Human sex is the reason why every single life is living today. The first thoughts about the first 2 human parents, a long time deceased actually.

As science talks about after life as being the place where humans gain the eternal, then obviously a human cannot own it before life. And it is that concept that they study life/consciousness and the belief beginnings of self.

So you would then wonder why occult sciences apply such studies, when they claim that the powers that they want are for a resource and they discuss one concept which is actually human male, one human being, one male in a group of males one self human beings about One.

Life is 2 human beings. So if they claim that they do not want life to exist, which is actually what science claims in its thesis by what it discusses huge reactions in the spatial cosmos, then they own what is taught to be a conscious confession.....to advise everyone by the use of words what their real intention is, whilst they use coercive reasoning elsewhere by use of words.

I was attacked in my female life because their claim Holy Mother spatial womb and Mother abomination is female inheritance direct to the living human female life.

No matter how many arguments I have stated, they completely ignore any relative human advice about how many lies they express in occult science themes.

Space is what it is described as by consciousness, space and it owns no sexual character.

Change of space is occurring to space and consciousness explained in science what changed space, heating of it did. We live in a natural changed spatial alight body, that also in our natural life owns the cooling conditions in the same mass natural body. 2 conditions are owned in the SAME natural state, space....yet space is the one only same and natural body.

It is why they destroyed all life on Earth before, lived before spruiking God O circle themes for science and then claim their science self from the past created/invented the life they now live, consciously aware of memories the same as any other human is by psyche. Every human is quantified to be aware, which is a psychic claim of the psyche.

Humans cannot discuss return or reincarnation of self unless self, human is already involved in that history. And the reasoning is due to atmospheric spirit gases having changed it mass. So if anyone infers to that reasoning today it is a scientific reasoning, without machines owning any purpose in that reasoning, for it is just natural reasoning about what the human self did to the human self before in science.
 
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