Non-existence vs an unknown afterlife

[Heyo]

I doubt that any of you understand the terrible risk involved.

"Ignorance is the mother of adventure." - Hägar

 

[QuestioningMind]

There is a risk only of there is a God, an afterlife, and something akin to hell.
Otherwise there is no risk, because you will just be DEAD.

Well, if I'm going to imagine a god and an afterlife there wouldn't be anything akin to a hell involved.

 

[Trailblazer]

Well, if I'm going to imagine a god and an afterlife there wouldn't be anything akin to a hell involved.

Good, because there will be no hell such as Christians envision it. Depictions of hell were just used to scare people back in the Bible days, but those days are over. People can now make decisions about God based upon reason, not fear.

 

[Erebus]

I find it hard to imagine a Hell I'd have a problem with.

One of the punishments described in Dante's Inferno is that heretics will be sealed into burning sarcophagi for eternity. I can understand the view that existence without challenge would be torturous but a hell like that doesn't present challenges. It's not something to be overcome, it's just eternal suffering.

Alternatively, if you thrive on overcoming problems, Hell might entail consciousness with no stimulation. There's a form of torture which involves putting somebody in a silent, white room, wearing white clothes and eating white food with nothing to break up the monotony. It can wreak havoc on a person's mind in a relatively short space of time.


In my view, this is the risk involved in picking option 2. an unknown afterlife could be absolutely anything. You might get an adventure, bliss or be reunited with lost loved ones. You might also get something so utterly horrific, not even the most morbidly imaginative among us could have conceived of it. It's also possible that such an existence would last for eternity with absolutely no hope of escape.

It's a risk I probably wouldn't be willing to take, though I can certainly understand the viewpoint of those who need to know what's behind door No. 2.

 

[Nakosis]

No, it is not like earth because it is not a material world, but it is like earth in the sense that we will still be the same person and we will have stuff to do. I have no idea how that will play out because the afterlife is a mystery for the most part.

What we do here on earth matters very much because that is the sole determinant of what we will experience in the afterlife, since the whole purpose of this existence is to acquire the qualities of character we will need in the afterlife. By struggling and meeting challenges you are probably acquiring some of those qualities.

So it's to prepare us for a permanent existence?

We don't have a lot of control over the circumstances we find ourselves in. I think most try to do the best they can with what they got. So we just do what we do and whatever that is would prepare us. So maybe we would judge the life of others but maybe we shouldn't. Maybe whatever is going on with them is whatever they need to get prepared.

 

[Heyo]

Good, because there will be no hell such as Christians envision it. Depictions of hell were just used to scare people back in the Bible days, but those days are over. People can now make decisions about God based upon reason, not fear.

The Bible has very little to say about hell and it's more vague than scary. The real fearmongering didn't come till the middle ages - but they were very creative. See Dante and Bosch.

 

[Roguish]

Very true. A lack of understanding would lead the way, but curiosity would push me forward. I'm the sort of person who would rather learn a horrible truth than live in blissful ignorance.

Hm, that's what you think now. What if the horrible truth is a lot more horrible than you could have imagined?

Sometimes that can be an uncomfortable thing, but ultimately more knowledge leads to better decision making and a broader understanding for why things are the way they are, which is something I care about.

What if the knowledge you will acquire is the knowledge that you have sealed your own fate, and that it is a terrible fate? Consider this: would you step through a door if someone told you "There's something behind this door, something you don't know about yet, and I won't tell you if it's good or bad. You're free to go through the door -- but beware, the door will slam shut behind you and you will never ever be able to open it again." Then would you still be curious as to what's behind the door? I think this is quite analogous to the OP's proposal.

As for the risk involved though, "fortune favours the bold."

That holds true in a world governed by the God of Light, as this world once was. It does not hold in the world where the Prince of Darkness reigns supreme, as he does in this world now.

Though, it seems like a selfish thought that people's conciousnesses somehow endure beyond death, I feel. We aren't that special compared to the rest of nature, and nothing about us should persist forever just to soothe our fears of a perminant end. Seems arrogant.

Oh, we're special alright, as are all mentating creatures. Unlike creatures without mentation, we survive death for as long as we desire -- but note that this desire is not under our direct control. Of course we don't have to survive death forever. We are immortal, but we don't have to be eternally immortal. We can gradually undo our desire for continued life, and thus end our immortality. The risk however, is that we forget that we must get out, and are tricked into trapping ourselves into eternal immortality under terrible circumstances. Indeed, this is what the agents of Evil aim for.

I guess for me, I care more about the things I would learn

As I said before, that's what you think now. Some things are best left undiscovered.

I would only accept this afterlife with the caveat that I could embrace oblivion at will, assuming I've learned everything there is to know.

Aha! Embrace oblivion at will! Now that would be a great thing, wouldn't it? And perhaps there is a Way... but not if at the same time you cherish your knowledge, as you seem to do...

 

[Roguish]

I do not believe that it is possible to avoid a conscious afterlife because the soul is responsible for consciousness and the soul of everyone is eternal.

It is a confusion of terminology. Some people use the term Soul to refer to Self-Consciousness, some use it to refer to the Crystal Ball in which Self-Consciousness appears. Of course everyone's Crystal Ball is eternal, for it stands entirely outside of time. So clearly that's what you're referring to when you speak of the Soul. However, in my earlier post I was speaking of Self-Consciousness, which is not necessarily eternal, but only immortal -- i.e. it survives death for as long as it desires that.

there is no logical explanation for my religion other than that it was revealed by God.

I do not doubt that. Bahai is certainly an authentic, revealed religion. Yet, like all religions from the Old World, it does not deal with the treacherous traps that the modern, technological world presents. (I'm not talking about Youtube addiction or Facebook anxiety here. I'm talking of things far worse.)

I do not believe anyone is trying to trick me

That is a great problem. If you assume there is noone trying to trick you, you are making the job so much easier for the agents of Evil. Do you deny Evil altogether, or do you deny that it can trick you even if you sincerely believe in God and sincerely practice your religion?

I like conflict, chaos, problems. It is hard for me to imagine a hell on earth I wouldn't find interesting.

I sincerely recommend you take that back, in your own heart. I'm not asking you to post on here that you're taking it back. Whether you type it up here is your choice, though doing so could contribute to a sense of being cleansed. Seriously -- do not invite damnation.

Am I constructing hell on earth? Maybe, out of some weird desire to make my life more complicated. I suppose I don't want to escape so much.

I don't want to sound patronizing, but be careful what you wish for. Evil does not relate to us humans as interesting opponents. It relates to us the way a cattle farmer relates to cattle destined for the slaughterhouse. Evil has no beef with us. It has a beef with God. Evil will trap us in hell for a gazillion years and not loose a minute of sleep over it -- only to spite God.

P.S. Your desire (and the desire of many moderns) to complicate your life is not weird, but perverse. It is an inclination that is neither natural nor supernatural, but alien. I offer that not to castigate, but in order to get the terminology straight. Correct distinctions will allow us to avoid underestimating the problem.

P.P.S. A complicated life is, in itself, not hell on earth, of course -- not by a very, very long shot. But complication does indeed fascinate humans, so it pulls them into a world where they are the more easily deceived. The more complication, the easier it is for the Great Deceiver to work his stratagems. Complication is the mental equivalent of a forest: the denser and bigger, the easier it is for the monsters to hide. They could be right by your side, and you wouldn't know it if the forest is dense enough...

 

[SigurdReginson]

Hm, that's what you think now. What if the horrible truth is a lot more horrible than you could have imagined?

You know, no one has a perfect life. We all have to carry the burdens of the horrors we have experienced in life, and we all have different ways of coping with those horrors. I used to cope with mine through escaping mentally from them. Things never really got better for me until I stopped running and faced those problems, even though they seemed impossible to overcome.

One thing that has taught me is that only in understanding can you face the odds when they are stacked against you. It also taught me that your life is worth fighting for, even if it's a losing battle. I think Theodore Roosevelt said it best when he said, "Let us rather run the risk of wearing out than rusting out."

The only other horrible afterlife idea I can think of is eternal torture. So what, though? I'd just go mad and lose my mind anyway.

Edit: Oh, whoops! Didn't see there was more for me, I just assumed it was a bunch of replies to other people and didn't read the rest. I'll go read them now and give a longer reply.

 

[Nakosis]

One of the punishments described in Dante's Inferno is that heretics will be sealed into burning sarcophagi for eternity. I can understand the view that existence without challenge would be torturous but a hell like that doesn't present challenges. It's not something to be overcome, it's just eternal suffering.

Alternatively, if you thrive on overcoming problems, Hell might entail consciousness with no stimulation. There's a form of torture which involves putting somebody in a silent, white room, wearing white clothes and eating white food with nothing to break up the monotony. It can wreak havoc on a person's mind in a relatively short space of time.


In my view, this is the risk involved in picking option 2. an unknown afterlife could be absolutely anything. You might get an adventure, bliss or be reunited with lost loved ones. You might also get something so utterly horrific, not even the most morbidly imaginative among us could have conceived of it. It's also possible that such an existence would last for eternity with absolutely no hope of escape.

It's a risk I probably wouldn't be willing to take, though I can certainly understand the viewpoint of those who need to know what's behind door No. 2.

True, it might be something I might not like but being able to deal with that kind of torture makes it interesting to me.

Still, want would the point be of either type of torture? Eternal pain or eternal boredom? Both seem pointless, of no value to a God unless such a God gets their jollies from watching people suffer. In which case, to me, the challenge would be to deny God their jollies.

 

[Nakosis]

I sincerely recommend you take that back, in your own heart. I'm not asking you to post on here that you're taking it back. Whether you type it up here is your choice, though doing so could contribute to a sense of being cleansed. Seriously -- do not invite damnation.



I don't want to sound patronizing, but be careful what you wish for. Evil does not relate to us humans as interesting opponents. It relates to us the way a cattle farmer relates to cattle destined for the slaughterhouse. Evil has no beef with us. It has a beef with God. Evil will trap us in hell for a gazillion years and not loose a minute of sleep over it -- only to spite God.

Thanks for the advice but I didn't choose to be who I am and I don't think I can choose to be someone else.

To take back the truth would be a lie.

 

[Trailblazer]

It's a risk I probably wouldn't be willing to take, though I can certainly understand the viewpoint of those who need to know what's behind door No. 2.

We do not need to know everything that is behind door No, 2 in order to know it is better than what is behind door No. 1. All we really have to know is that there is no hell as depicted by Christians or Dante's inferno. Anything else we can work through when we get there.

 

[Roguish]

The only other horrible afterlife idea I can think of is eternal torture. So what, though? I'd just go mad and lose my mind anyway.

No -- Evil's goal is to make sure that you never lose your mind, not even when you want to. That is precisely what the trap is designed for. If you are confident that you are . But don't underestimate Evil -- it knows the workings of the human psyche better than anyone.

True, it might be something I might not like but being able to deal with that kind of torture makes it interesting to me.

Still, want would the point be of either type of torture? Eternal pain or eternal boredom? Both seem pointless, of no value to a God unless such a God gets their jollies from watching people suffer. In which case, to me, the challenge would be to deny God their jollies.

Thanks for the advice but I didn't choose to be who I am and I don't think I can choose to be someone else. To take back the truth would be a lie.

You cannot choose to be someone else, but you can choose to reject unhealthy curiosity in yourself. It's just a matter of telling yourself "Don't go there". It's like skipping a TV channel as soon as you see that it's something "uncouth". Would you skip it if there was a child sitting next to you on your sofa? Of course. Why not be the child you skip it for?

 

[Trailblazer]

So it's to prepare us for a permanent existence?

Yes, that is exactly what it is.

We don't have a lot of control over the circumstances we find ourselves in. I think most try to do the best they can with what they got. So we just do what we do and whatever that is would prepare us. So maybe we would judge the life of others but maybe we shouldn't. Maybe whatever is going on with them is whatever they need to get prepared.

It sounds to me like you are on the right track. as Jesus sais "judge not lest ye be judged."

I personally do not think it is absolutely necessary to believe in God, but it certainly would not hurt anyone's situation.
Of course, as I tell all nonbelievers, it really does not do much good just to believe God exists unless you know something about God and what God's will is for you. Otherwise, what's the point?

 

[SigurdReginson]

Hm, that's what you think now. What if the horrible truth is a lot more horrible than you could have imagined?

Answered above ^^^

What if the knowledge you will acquire is the knowledge that you have sealed your own fate, and that it is a terrible fate? Consider this: would you step through a door if someone told you "There's something behind this door, something you don't know about yet, and I won't tell you if it's good or bad. You're free to go through the door -- but beware, the door will slam shut behind you and you will never ever be able to open it again." Then would you still be curious as to what's behind the door? I think this is quite analogous to the OP's proposal.

In that case, no. I'm curious, but not THAT curious. The idea of dying and being worm food isn't so frightening for me.

That holds true in a world governed by the God of Light, as this world once was. It does not hold in the world where the Prince of Darkness reigns supreme, as he does in this world now.

Ah, are you a Christian? I never understood the idea of god letting Satan run things. For what? An ego stroke? I'd never let someone take care of my kids when I was away if I knew they would molest them. Why would god allow a molester to watch over and influence us?

Oh, we're special alright, as are all mentating creatures. Unlike creatures without mentation, we survive death for as long as we desire -- but note that this desire is not under our direct control. Of course we don't have to survive death forever. We are immortal, but we don't have to be eternally immortal. We can gradually undo our desire for continued life, and thus end our immortality. The risk however, is that we forget that we must get out, and are tricked into trapping ourselves into eternal immortality under terrible circumstances. Indeed, this is what the agents of Evil aim for.

Eh... I'll take your word for it. No one can ever seem to agree about spirits and afterlives and all those other things. One thing they can all agree on, however, is that no one can pick them up and examine/measure them. If you can't do that, they don't seem to reflect reality.

As I said before, that's what you think now. Some things are best left undiscovered.

That is true. No one can know anything except in retrospect. as for things best being left undiscovered, I'll cross that bridge when I reach it. So far, that hasn't been my experience in life, though.

Aha! Embrace oblivion at will! Now that would be a great thing, wouldn't it? And perhaps there is a Way... but not if at the same time you cherish your knowledge, as you seem to do...

And why is that?

 

[SigurdReginson]

No -- Evil's goal is to make sure that you never lose your mind, not even when you want to. That is precisely what the trap is designed for. If you are confident that you are . But don't underestimate Evil -- it knows the workings of the human psyche better than anyone.

What exactly is evil? Do you mean something/someone that is morally bankrupt? A spiritual being? It's a very vague word with many meanings.

 

[Trailblazer]

And perhaps there is a Way... but not if at the same time you cherish your knowledge, as you seem to do...

And perhaps that "Way" is not Christianity, ever thought of that possibility and what could happen to Christians in that case?
What if Christians missed the boat when it sailed out to sea?

 

[Trailblazer]

What exactly is evil?

I think he means Satan. You were a Christian for 30 years, how could you forget that?

 

[Erebus]

True, it might be something I might not like but being able to deal with that kind of torture makes it interesting to me.

Still, want would the point be of either type of torture? Eternal pain or eternal boredom? Both seem pointless, of no value to a God unless such a God gets their jollies from watching people suffer. In which case, to me, the challenge would be to deny God their jollies.

Defying a God who would create those afterlives seems a noble goal, though the existence of Hell/s doesn't necessarily mean there is a deity responsible for their creation. I would also be very surprised if anybody could deal with either of those eternities but for the sake of argument, let's say that it's possible. Let's also say there is indeed a deity sadistic enough to confine somebody to Hell. If so, might it not also alter the thought processes of its victims? Perhaps ensuring that the only thought they're capable of is an urgent need for their pain to stop?

I'm probably not doing a great job at explaining my views here, so I'll try to summarise: There is no upper limit to how terrible an afterlife might be. Finding a silver lining just means there's an even worse option in which that little scrap of hope isn't applicable.

 

[Roguish]

I never understood the idea of god letting Satan run things.

God doesn't let Evil run things. Satan is a traitor who received his understanding of man and Creation when he (Satan) was still on God's team. Then he broke away, setting up his own shop dedicated to sabotaging God's Creation. This isn't Biblical or spiritual or poetical or metaphorical. This is literally what happened.

No one can ever seem to agree about spirits and afterlives and all those other things. One thing they can all agree on, however, is that no one can pick them up and examine/measure them. If you can't do that, they don't seem to reflect reality.

Reality itself it the greatest hoax of all time. It is a monstrous mental construct pounded into your mind by a life spent inside a system of upbringing, education, and artifically acquired routine behaviors. Of course spirits and the afterlife can't be "detected" or "measured" inside reality. These things are part of Actuality, not reality.

Aha! Embrace oblivion at will! Now that would be a great thing, wouldn't it? And perhaps there is a Way... but not if at the same time you cherish your knowledge, as you seem to do...

And why is that?

Why is what? Why do you cherish it? It is a subtle pride in man: the satisfaction of "knowing".

Or do you mean, why does it prevent your escape into oblivion? Because knowledge, in the sense of mental understanding, exists in the Mindspace. So cherishing knowledge keeps your Mindspace open -- prevents it from closing. Which in turns prevents your return to the Fused State, a.k.a. Oblivion.

What exactly is evil? Do you mean something/someone that is morally bankrupt? A spiritual being? It's a very vague word with many meanings.

Evil stands completely outside this world, just like God does. I'm not fond of the term "spiritual being" because it only makes things vaguer. Satan is not a daemon. To put it in our-worldly terms, Satan is like a former employee of God, who ungratefully quit even though he had it good, and set up his own shop, abusing the knowledge from his former job to intentionally sabotage the Works done by God's shop. Evil is like a hacker hacking God's computers and ruining everything that's running on them. He can do this because he still has the passwords and know the tech from his days on God's payroll. Why is he doing this? Because he can.

I think he means Satan.

Satan is just a name. I prefer tradition over newfangled names, so it works for me, but it isn't that important. A "non-denominational" term the club of saboteurs is simply Evil.