it's not exactly my job to imagine how your belief system works. when i ask you questions, i would appreciate you answering them, rather than pretending that my imagination is lacking since i dont have the answers. unless you dont know the definition of inquiry.
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Nonbelievers to Hell!
- Thread starter Klaufi_Wodensson
- Start date
it's not exactly my job to imagine how your belief system works. when i ask you questions, i would appreciate you answering them, rather than pretending that my imagination is lacking since i dont have the answers. unless you dont know the definition of inquiry.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
So much discussion...no focus.
Hell is that place without the one item you love most.
That one item should be God.
Living without God is not your choice.
The choice belongs to heaven.
Can the decision to live without you be eternal?....yes.
God is eternal.
His decisions could prove eternal.
He got along without you so far.
Will He really miss you when you're gone?
Hell is that place without the one item you love most.
That one item should be God.
Living without God is not your choice.
The choice belongs to heaven.
Can the decision to live without you be eternal?....yes.
God is eternal.
His decisions could prove eternal.
He got along without you so far.
Will He really miss you when you're gone?
Midnight Pete
Well-Known Member
Living without God is a choice-- I must disagree there. You make it sound like God doesn't care about people and is an emotionally distant Parent. If you believe as I do you know that blatantly untrue.
and when the one item you love most is not a god, hell's a vacation from the bible belt.
i really fail to understand why people insist that hell is a place of suffering.
will you do me a favor and mention this to all of the christians in my life who feel like it's imperative that i believe? they dont seem to get how amiable the breakup has been.
pete, i feel like you're losing focus again.
the question i asked (the question you dodged) was why does an eternal, and delayed punishment serve as a means for correcting behavior. when a child disobeys then immediate reaction is the best means for correcting that behavior in the future. this way the punishment is associated very directly with the action and it's easy to see that one causes the other. punishment should also fit the crime, something like a months restriction with no food and water for saying a curse word would easily be seen as excessive. so how can one justify an eternal punishment for temporal crimes that is delayed until such a time that a person physically cannot do anything to change hir behavior?
if god is using an unsuccessful model for behavioral correction, and he must know that it's unsuccessful, then does that mean that behavior doesn't concern him - and if so what's his ulterior motive?
the question i asked (the question you dodged) was why does an eternal, and delayed punishment serve as a means for correcting behavior. when a child disobeys then immediate reaction is the best means for correcting that behavior in the future. this way the punishment is associated very directly with the action and it's easy to see that one causes the other. punishment should also fit the crime, something like a months restriction with no food and water for saying a curse word would easily be seen as excessive. so how can one justify an eternal punishment for temporal crimes that is delayed until such a time that a person physically cannot do anything to change hir behavior?
if god is using an unsuccessful model for behavioral correction, and he must know that it's unsuccessful, then does that mean that behavior doesn't concern him - and if so what's his ulterior motive?
Hopefully you'll get answers... when I ask Pete why God uses inefficient methods to get people to know He exists I get deliberately ignored apparently because I'm too aggressive by asking.
Quiddity
UndertheInfluenceofGiants
I don't know what a group of non-theist would find efficient? I really don't. They'd probably gather and squabble about it as much as us theist do. Things that are outside the senses? Things in the emperical plane and in a petri dish? Perhaps. But I do know that man has an innate knack for attaching meaning and this is never met with questions like "it's inefficient". Inefficient for who exactly? You? The elite think tank? Maybe He is just hiding from those seek Him in the wrong places?
PolyHedral
Superabacus Mystic
But efficiency is quite an objective concept; Given a goal, how do you fulfill the goal with the least resources, or in the fastest time, etc? The problems appear when the goal is "Inform people of God's existence."
Sort of like in that court case where the judge said, "I don't know how to define pornography but I know it when I see it," do you honestly think that the best way to get people to believe in you if you're a god is to take a person or two or three and have them preach the word to other people?
Why not a universal revelation? If I woke up and found myself conversing with God, assuring me that he exists, I might think myself off the deep end at first -- yeah -- but as soon as I found out all of my friends and everyone all around the world had the same experience it would be infinitely harder to doubt.
Why does God allow reasonable doubt -- that's the best question we can ask?
Midnight Pete
Well-Known Member
Meow Mix, it's impossible to find God with the intellect alone.
I think that's what I should have said earlier.
I think that's what I should have said earlier.
So... in order to find God we must abandon reason; the very same reason God ostensibly gave us that has built in principles that disallow its abandonment?
How is that fair?
Midnight Pete
Well-Known Member
Fair? I don't know if it's fair or not. Is it fair that we can't use our emotions and inutuition to do high-level algebra?
Fair? I don't know if it's fair or not. Is it fair that we can't use our emotions and inutuition to do high-level algebra?
Doing high level algebra isn't the difference between enjoying paradise and burning in horrific anguish for eternity I would think.
Let me draw an analogy. Let's say that I have a child and I want to try to act like God, so I hide myself from the child in such a way that they can only understand me by abandoning their reason. They then essentially have to make a choice between believing that I exist and "trusting" in me, or believing something else explains their state of affairs.
I give them no evidence to decide because otherwise they could reason their way to me.
...how exactly is it that they're supposed to arrive at the correct decision, then, if they don't use that process which allows them to examine evidences and check things for consistency and coherency? It's basically asking them to choose what to believe based on a dart-toss if they can't arrive to belief in me without the use of reason.
So, suppose they end up choosing something that's different from a belief in me... maybe they believe (incorrectly) their mother is a blonde for instance. I then turn my back on them as a group of thugs douses them in gasoline and strikes the match -- after all, they chose that outcome by their free will, right?
Can you explain how God expecting us to abandon reason yet still come to the correct decision (without evidence, and with eternal punishment for error) makes any sense whatsoever? Can you tell me that you truly believe that such a God is a just and benevolent god?
Quiddity
UndertheInfluenceofGiants
Because there is a healthy dimension to it? I know this is vague and perhaps unsatisfactory to you but in my own life, doubt helps me understand my limitations, helps refine the simple and enhance relationships I already have. The source of it not having to do with insecurity either.
Hardly emperical evidence, I know, but I'm just noting the usefulness of it.
ButTheCatCameBack
Active Member
Poor, sad appeals to emotion.
Would you agree that allowing the existence of reasonable doubt -- purposely -- borders on malevolence if God indeed punishes non-belief (or "allows" unbelievers to be punished)?
Interesting choice that 'doubt' helps you understand your limitations.
Or personal limitations or capabilities.
Just a thought:
Instead of doubt more likely wouldn't wisdom and being humble help one understand through acquired knowledge, past experience, judgment or assessment be that which could refine or enhance relationships?
-Proverbs 11v2,25.
This doesn't really address my question though over why God would allow reasonable doubt to exist in us regular ol' human beings who aren't willing to just believe in stuff all willy nilly -- darn lack of evidence.
We have the physical evidence that no one can get rid of the Bible.
Over the many centuries the Bible has had many enemies [from within and without]
and no one can get rid of it.
We have the physical evidence just as Jesus said [Matt 24v14; 28vs19,20] is being carried out today and no one can stop it.
We have the physical evidence of thoughtful design in creation.
With intelligent design comes a mind.
Over the many centuries the Bible has had many enemies [from within and without]
and no one can get rid of it.
We have the physical evidence just as Jesus said [Matt 24v14; 28vs19,20] is being carried out today and no one can stop it.
We have the physical evidence of thoughtful design in creation.
With intelligent design comes a mind.