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Nonbelievers to Hell!

ButTheCatCameBack

Active Member
We have the physical evidence that no one can get rid of the Bible.
Over the many centuries the Bible has had many enemies [from within and without]
and no one can get rid of it.

So even more rare books that had copies destroyed by people maliciously must REALLY be true. As their extreme rarity and the malevolence directed at them is testimony to their authenticity.

Didn't a fellow in Florida want his congregating to burn the Koran?....*whistles innocently*
We have the physical evidence just as Jesus said [Matt 24v14; 28vs19,20] is being carried out today and no one can stop it.

Oh my, then many religions are true then. As they have spread from their geographic isolation to all over the world. What a confusing cosmology. But I suppose with truth by popularity, this must be the case.

We have the physical evidence of thoughtful design in creation.
With intelligent design comes a mind.

Cart before the horse much?
 
Meow Mix, it's impossible to find God with the intellect alone.

I think that's what I should have said earlier.

why isn't it even possible to get part of the way with intellect? if he's real he invented intellect, so why not at least throw a bone to the ones who have learned to rely on it for everything else in the known universe?
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
We have the physical evidence that no one can get rid of the Bible.
Over the many centuries the Bible has had many enemies [from within and without]
and no one can get rid of it.

Sure, just like no one can get rid of the Satanic Bible either, and it has many enemies :rolleyes:

We have the physical evidence just as Jesus said [Matt 24v14; 28vs19,20] is being carried out today and no one can stop it.

That isn't "physical evidence" of anything. I doubt that you find the continued existence of the Quran, the Vedas, the Book of the Dead, the Book of Mormon, Dianetics (or whatever the heck Scientologists use) to be "physical evidence" of their beliefs' truth.

We have the physical evidence of thoughtful design in creation.
With intelligent design comes a mind.

This is the teleological fallacy.

Do you have any evidences that aren't fallacious?
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
Would you agree that allowing the existence of reasonable doubt -- purposely -- borders on malevolence if God indeed punishes non-belief (or "allows" unbelievers to be punished)?
It would, if God indeed punished non-belief out right. I suppose it would depend on what kind of doubt you have. If say, you asked questions in order to keep from finding things out (I've said for years in this forum that the evidence they seek [scientific] doesn't exist; yet they keep asking anyways.).....is, the province of children. Such questions are also, more terribly, seen in the enemies of Jesus who asked incessantly for one more miracle, one more sign, in order to keep from facing the fact that he was the Messiah. In the book of John, he tells us, for instance, that some of Jesus' countrymen came to him, having witnessed miracle after miracle and still they asked, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly." Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness to me; but you do not believe" (John 10:24-26). It was not that they couldn't tell, it was that they didn't want to know. Or perhaps, they want to know Him under their terms?
 
First off, the idea of eternal damnation/suffering is something I ignore because honestly...it's silly.

But, that said, I can see why a Christian would think that Hell is a horrible place: It's a place without the presence of their god. A presence that is (in theory) a large part of their lives.

However, to the non-believer--who already lives without the presence of the Christian god in their lives--it's not a big deal. It's not even a change in the status quo.

So when someone tells me I'm going to hell, I just shrug.
 

Starsoul

Truth
This doesn't really address my question though over why God would allow reasonable doubt to exist in us regular ol' human beings who aren't willing to just believe in stuff all willy nilly -- darn lack of evidence.

Thats because you choose to look for evidence where you are least likely to find it.

If there were no divine scriptures sent to the earth, your questions might have been very valid, but since people refuse the clues given in scriptural evidences ,the only manual where God Himself descirbes Himself, there isnt much to look for beyond that.

Because beyond that, only human understanding of the world is available, which continuously is subjected to erroneous judgment, and lacks the power to control the rampant influences of evil against nurturing of goodness, in human beings.

If I was to learn astronomy, a literature scholar is hardly somebody I'll go to, for learning astronomy, insisting that HE 'must' teach me because, well, i wish to be taught by him in order to be knowledgeable. Likewise, when you investigate something about God, or his scriptures, it requires a detail study of that matter, in that particular context before arriving on conclusions which only an astronomer, or a literal figure could give.

The non-believer's stance seems more to stem from obstinacy rather than from a growing logic. Thats more like shutting your eyes to the 'given' evidence, and trying to dig it up, wishing for it to be 'forced' upon you visually, where You 'Wish' to see it; in your garden or in your lab, how logical is that? Trying to look for something and not educating oneself with the clues that might lead to it?

I suggest one read human biology, in detail, or be a volunteer in some hospital for some good time, never better to examine nature by studying his complex creations.



[youtube]obEBR5MbhNU[/youtube]
YouTube - Why this scientist believes in GOD
 
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PolyHedral

Superabacus Mystic
since people refuse the clues given in scriptural evidences ,
...which are over 2000 years old, have been translated from an entirely different language (inconsistently), and, in general, are not considered reliable historical sources. There are far more effective ways of getting a message across.
 
This doesn't really address my question though over why God would allow reasonable doubt to exist in us regular ol' human beings who aren't willing to just believe in stuff all willy nilly -- darn lack of evidence.

Why don't you ask the god in question? Humans all have the own agendas, so asking for a human opinion on the supposed wants/activities of a god is futile.
 
Because we don't know the God in question exists.

That's some catch, that Catch-22...

So, because you don't know, that's a valid reason to take a humans word for what that supposed god wants/does?

Doesn't sound like a catch 22, so much as carrot and stick manipulation. Something humans are VERY good at. Nothing divine about it.
 
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Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
It would, if God indeed punished non-belief out right. I suppose it would depend on what kind of doubt you have. If say, you asked questions in order to keep from finding things out (I've said for years in this forum that the evidence they seek [scientific] doesn't exist; yet they keep asking anyways.).....is, the province of children. Such questions are also, more terribly, seen in the enemies of Jesus who asked incessantly for one more miracle, one more sign, in order to keep from facing the fact that he was the Messiah. In the book of John, he tells us, for instance, that some of Jesus' countrymen came to him, having witnessed miracle after miracle and still they asked, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly." Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness to me; but you do not believe" (John 10:24-26). It was not that they couldn't tell, it was that they didn't want to know. Or perhaps, they want to know Him under their terms?

That might be an issue for people who have seen any justifications... I certainly haven't; and I was a full-scale believer when I was young. I was certainly ready to receive anything to convince me to remain a believer. One time I took a book (I think it was called "Evolution in Action" but I don't recall the author) to the joint Presbytarian-Baptist church my family attended and pleaded for someone to show me how it didn't make sense -- it's shameful to me now that I was endeavoring indeed not to seek knowledge but to avoid accepting the possibility of anything outside my worldview.

I don't make those mistakes now. I'm quite open to evidence and justification for a god's existence. If God exists and is omniscient then He knows that. Maybe if that's the case the justification I'm seeking is still heading my way in the future, but for now I have to truly wonder -- where is it?
 

Starsoul

Truth
...which are over 2000 years old, have been translated from an entirely different language (inconsistently), and, in general, are not considered reliable historical sources. There are far more effective ways of getting a message across.


Thats such a beatable statement i'm amazed you actually put it forward.

You recognize and validate non-scientific, unprovable, UNPROVED-scribbles of darwin and the fact that he in his theoretical high, conjoined human ancestry with apes , and you have serious doubts regarding scriptures which are confirmed , were confirmed, and will keep on finding absolute confirmation till the end of times, I can bet you on that one if nothing else. What if science PROVES in the coming future that man did not evolve from apes?

The avoidance towards working for that proof really seems intentional now , because science could easily prove that, but its not going to, as it wont go down well for those who run the science show in only those instances where they are getting something out of it, and for those who run their Govts on THEIR 'self serving principles', and hence, 'religion MUST not take over the world, in any case, or it compromises their firm grip over the resources of the world!'.:devil:

Its true that most scriptures have been translated from their original languages, and some (do not even retain their original names today owing to human corruption) giving doubts to their originality, but that loss of 'some of the scripture's credibility', points strongly towards the 'Final word of God ' The Quran which stands unchanged, unfazed, and un-corrupted.
( But why would i buy another egg when the rest of them turned out rotten, stop eating eggs will you? great logic.)

It is ONLY the detail study of ALL scriptures which CLARIFY those doubts. But we will only stick to the detail study of science and waste our time whinning about lack of evidence to this or that, only few take the challenge sincerely and few want to go ahead with the truth.

You have to be an ardent examiner of the scriptures to be even able to identify whats wrong and where, you have to educate yourself thoroughly and it takes many to obtain that kind of knowledge, with a lot of patience, preserverence and faith.

It is scriptural science, it has a history of thousands of years, and is not comparable to a couple of 'hundreds of years' of study of scientific methods which still need to grow to give out any clues or evidences to match the wisdom of the scriptures, which it never is even going to come close to.

That said, God made it just so easy to understand and saved humans the trouble of going back ages to verify something on their own, He only asked humans to read the word of God with an open mind, and truth will reveal itself.

Just because the technology today has digital imagery devices to capture images, does not mean men did not exist before , lacked knowledge and all of them lived in caves. The Pyramids of Egypt ,(several other ancient civilizations, romans& persians) and the tall mountains engraved in a whole city in Mecca shout aloud about the presence of skilled civilizations with excellent designs of cities and immense resources to put that kind of effort across, even today its a wonder how such huge cities got built that way.

Do you really think all men of the past were some fools who never acquired any knowledge and lacked intelligence to cope with their climates? And they believed the Books from God as exactly that , because they lacked proof against them? How lame and how foolishly arrogant of one's superiority complex of intelligence.


What do you think is an effective way of giving a message across to people who will be born a thousands years later? And suppose there was a huge flood to drown all technology, earthquakes to destroy man made structures, nuclear bombs to destroy almost everything, and the space satellites destroyed too. Device a plausible way of conserving that message and make it damage -fool-proof.
 
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AxisMundi

E Pluribus Unum!!!
We have the physical evidence that no one can get rid of the Bible.
Over the many centuries the Bible has had many enemies [from within and without]
and no one can get rid of it.

We have the physical evidence just as Jesus said [Matt 24v14; 28vs19,20] is being carried out today and no one can stop it.

We have the physical evidence of thoughtful design in creation.
With intelligent design comes a mind.

The bible is ahrdly self-supporting evidence.

Indeed, it is FAR from self-supporting evidence.

And sorry, there is no indications of intelligent design either.
 

PolyHedral

Superabacus Mystic
You recognize and validate non-scientific, unprovable, UNPROVED-scribbles of darwin and the fact that he in his theoretical high, conjoined human ancestry with apes , and you have serious doubts regarding scriptures which are confirmed , were confirmed, and will keep on finding absolute confirmation till the end of times, I can bet you on that one if nothing else. What if science PROVES in the coming future that man did not evolve from apes?
Where did you get the idea that Darwin's idea is unprovable? It is undisputable that genes mutate, and there is probably evidence that shows Deep Time that has nothing to do with evolution.

The avoidance towards working for that proof really seems intentional now , because science could easily prove that, but its not going to, as it wont go down well for those who run the science show in only those instances where they are getting something out of it, and for those who run their Govts on THEIR 'self serving principles', and hence, 'religion MUST not take over the world, in any case, or it compromises their firm grip over the resources of the world!'.:devil:
You're actually semi-right here; Science is not interested in any theory that doesn't make predictions.

Its true that most scriptures have been translated from their original languages, and some (do not even retain their original names today owing to human corruption) giving doubts to their originality, but that loss of 'some of the scripture's credibility', points strongly towards the 'Final word of God ' The Quran which stands unchanged, unfazed, and un-corrupted.
Are you reading it in the original... Arabic, I think?

It is ONLY the detail study of ALL scriptures which CLARIFY those doubts. But we will only stick to the detail study of science and waste our time whinning about lack of evidence to this or that, only few take the challenge sincerely and few want to go ahead with the truth.
There is a tree, behind a wall and hidden from view.
Alice says "The tree bears pears."
Bob says, "The tree bears apples."
Charlie says, "The tree bears bananas."
David says "There is no tree."

What does the tree bear, if anything? And how do you make that decision?
It is scriptural science, it has a history of thousands of years, and is not comparable to a couple of 'hundreds of years' of study of scientific methods which still need to grow to give out any clues or evidences to match the wisdom of the scriptures, which it never is even going to come close to.
"match the wisdom of the scriptures"? You're using a machine with component parts roughly the same size as atoms, operating approximately 1000 times faster than you can think. Wisdom is useless if it is not applicable.

Just because the technology today has digital imagery devices to capture images, does not mean men did not exist before , lacked knowledge and all of them lived in caves. The Pyramids of Egypt ,(several other ancient civilizations, romans& persians) and the tall mountains engraved in a whole city in Mecca shout aloud about the presence of skilled civilizations with excellent designs of cities and immense resources to put that kind of effort across, even today its a wonder how such huge cities got built that way.
Yes, the ancients were good architects, but we are better. We build cities housing tens of millions, and structures... well, you need very good material science to build the Burj Khalifa.

Do you really think all men of the past were some fools who never acquired any knowledge and lacked intelligence to cope with their climates? And they believed the Books from God as exactly that , because they lacked proof against them? How lame and how foolishly arrogant of one's superiority complex of intelligence.
Of course the ancient civilizations were not gullible, or stupid.

What do you think is an effective way of giving a message across to people who will be born a thousands years later? And suppose there was a huge flood to drown all technology, earthquakes to destroy man made structures, nuclear bombs to destroy almost everything, and the space satellites destroyed too. Device a plausible way of conserving that message and make it damage -fool-proof.
Burning letters in the sky 200ft high. Or structures on the moon. Or loose-leaf holy texts, with updates appearing periodically. Or maybe the technical specification of the universe.
 
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