None of it is true - Does this bother anyone?

[slave2six]

The Dark Ages were not caused by Christianity. Which scholars are teaching that today? Civilization collapsed in the West, on account of the barbarian influx among other reasons. If the Christian Church did anything in this period, it was to preserve of the fallen Rome what it could. The Christian East maintained until the fall of Constantinople in the 15th century.

You aren't much of an historian, are you?

What was the ruling political force from 325-the early 1400s?

What political force was behind the Crusades that pillaged cities throughout the Mediterranean like Jerusalem and Constantinople and destroyed or pillaged its wealth?

What advances in any of the sciences were made after the Christian Church took power and before the non-Christian writings were again recovered?

What sciences were lost after the Christian Church took power?

What did the Christian church do to every new civilization that it encountered in Europe, the Americas and the South Pacific?

The only thing that the Christian church preserved in all this time was its power. They did this by destroying or assimilating native religions, emphasizing the fear of Hell and Purgatory, and introducing any new superstition that would advance their power (indulgences anyone?).

If what you say is true then they should have welcomed with rapture the new discoveries of the Renaissance. They did not. Not by a long shot.

Thanks for playing.

 

[OmarKhayyam]

Well then thank god those days are done is all I can say. But why do you think (assuming this is true) it has anything to do with modern Christianity? Yeah, there are some hardcore fundamentalists, but they're a tiny minority.

This MAY be true of Canada. I can't say. I've never been there.

But it most assuredly is NOT true of the US. They are not "tiny" at all and in the SE they are not even a minority. And as evidence of that I give you Mike Huckabee and Pat Robertson and Ann Coulter.

Oh, almost forgot. The latest addition to that illustrious list - The Reverend Wiley Drake.

 

[Jordan St. Francis]

You aren't much of an historian, are you?

What was the ruling political force from 325-the early 1400s?

What political force was behind the Crusades that pillaged cities throughout the Mediterranean like Jerusalem and Constantinople and destroyed or pillaged its wealth?

What advances in any of the sciences were made after the Christian Church took power and before the non-Christian writings were again recovered?

What sciences were lost after the Christian Church took power?

What did the Christian church do to every new civilization that it encountered in Europe, the Americas and the South Pacific?

The only thing that the Christian church preserved in all this time was its power. They did this by destroying or assimilating native religions, emphasizing the fear of Hell and Purgatory, and introducing any new superstition that would advance their power (indulgences anyone?).

If what you say is true then they should have welcomed with rapture the new discoveries of the Renaissance. They did not. Not by a long shot.

Thanks for playing.

That's a historical fallacy. Cite me a source you've read on the topic.

 

[slave2six]

That's a historical fallacy. Cite me a source you've read on the topic.

• History of Christianity (Paul Johnson)
• Dark Ages The Case for a Science of Human Behavior (Lee C. McIntyre) - Review found at MIT Press.
• The Tragedy of Theology: How Religion Caused and Extended the Dark Ages

That should keep you occupied for a while...

 

[slave2six]

• The Tragedy of Theology: How Religion Caused and Extended the Dark Ages

Free excerpt:

Andrew Coulson, a researcher in the field of educational history, points out that whereas the Greeks were fascinated by the natural world, taking pioneering steps in such sciences as anatomy, biology, physics, and meteorology, the Christians replaced efforts to understand the world with an attempt to know God; observation-based study of nature was, accordingly, subordinated to faith-based study of scripture. A decline in learning consequently afflicted every cognitive subject. “What limited medical knowledge had been accumulated by Greek and Roman physicians was supplanted by utter mysticism.” For example, St. Augustine believed that demons were responsible for diseases, a tragic regression from Hippocrates. Scientific work in general declined as interest in the physical world did. The overall result? “From the standpoint of mass education . . . the medieval era was indeed a dark age. Despite isolated pockets of learning concentrated around the monasteries of Europe, the overwhelming majority of the populace was uneducated and illiterate.”

Contributing to the educational debacle, in 529 the Christian emperor, Justinian I, ruling the Eastern Empire from Constantinople and holding that Greek philosophy was “inherently subversive of Christian belief,” closed all the pagan schools of philosophy, including Plato’s Academy, which, for 900 years, had specialized in the teachings of its founder. To fully enforce his ban, Justinian forbade any pagan to teach. (Boethius (480–525), a Christian and the last serious philosopher for 350 years, had been educated in the great pagan schools.) As a result, nobody in the West would have the opportunity to study the achievements of Greek culture for six interminable centuries. As the eminent historian, Will Durant, observed: “Greek philosophy, after eleven centuries of history, had come to an end.”

 

[Riverwolf]

Do we not have an obligation to help such people out of the slavery of their religion? Surely we can ask them to think. If they refuse to, that's their lookout but how do you walk by something like that and not scream to the heavens?

Jesus wasn't the only Sage who taught to focus on your own problems and not worry about others'.

 

[Riverwolf]

Well, I think the idea of a "rebirth" is important. It implies that something died. Had these things never been lost to begin with, there would not have been a Dark Ages and we would be much further along as a species than we are at present.

Would we as a species been mature enough for it, though?

Would we have been ready for it?

 

[Riverwolf]

This MAY be true of Canada. I can't say. I've never been there.

But it most assuredly is NOT true of the US. They are not "tiny" at all and in the SE they are not even a minority. And as evidence of that I give you Mike Huckabee and Pat Robertson and Ann Coulter.

Oh, almost forgot. The latest addition to that illustrious list - The Reverend Wiley Drake.

Four celebrities out of what population?

 

[Alceste]

This MAY be true of Canada. I can't say. I've never been there.

But it most assuredly is NOT true of the US. They are not "tiny" at all and in the SE they are not even a minority. And as evidence of that I give you Mike Huckabee and Pat Robertson and Ann Coulter.

Oh, almost forgot. The latest addition to that illustrious list - The Reverend Wiley Drake.

Yeah, it's primarily an American phenomenon, so it follows that most of the fundamentalists would be living there, and would be the majority in the Bible Belt.

I'm not going to say it doesn't leak over the border and I've never met a Canadian creationist, but they are exceedingly rare, even in Alberta. My Christian friend's parents in Ontario believe the earth is only 6000 years old. It's rare enough that it was quite shocking (and disturbing) to discover it in my own back yard (well, three days drive away, but still).

Canada is 43 % Catholic, 16 % no religion, 9 % United Church (the one I was talking about) 7 % Anglican and 2 % Born-Again / Evangelical / Apostolic / Other. I actually don't know what American fundamentalism is called, since American fundamentalists tend to insist it's THE "Christianity", full stop, and get offended if you try to slot them into the big picture somewhere.

Anyway, that was a detour from what I meant to say, which is that the literalist, Bible-thumping sort of Christianity is not very prevalent outside the US. Even in the US, the majority of Christians are Catholic. Having just poked around on the intertubes, I've learned that Catholicism has grown in the last 7 years while membership in all other Christian denominations has fallen.

 

[OmarKhayyam]

Four celebrities out of what population?

Some ignorance is just astounding in its well - in its IGNORANCE.

I give you one small example which MIGHT (and ONLY might) impart some appreciation of reality.

In several states in US today the rules of Civil Procedure allow the records of the family bible to be admitted as evidence for the events recorded, births deaths marriages, etc. Such records establish a prima fascia case for the events alleged and are considered dispositive unless and until counter evidence is presented.

If the significance of that escapes you consider how it would sound if the same information was regarded as fact if recorded in the family copy of the Iliad or the Upanishads.

For these people Christianity as they understand it is not some belief system. If orders their lives, dictates their daily routine, informs their most basic decisions. They will abandon their children before their will abandoned their “faith.”



And what they record in the bible is "gospel." And accepted as such.

 

[slave2six]

Jesus wasn't the only Sage who taught to focus on your own problems and not worry about others'.

I think you have that backwards...

 

[slave2six]

Would we as a species been mature enough for it, though?

Would we have been ready for it?

Why not? After all, we had progressed a long way and all that progress was lost due to an interruption of a power-hungry superstitious bunch of dweezles.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Why not? After all, we had progressed a long way and all that progress was lost due to an interruption of a power-hungry superstitious bunch of dweezles.

Yes...As you reflect on the advancements of the Egyptians, Romans and Greeks. Let's not forget about the Chinese.....you have to wonder about the "Dark Ages"......

Was the dark ages an isolated event in humanities history? The reason I ask is...What if all the other civilizations were still progressing...or did outside factions cause a stunt in their growth as well....?

 

[Riverwolf]

Some ignorance is just astounding in its well - in its IGNORANCE.

I give you one small example which MIGHT (and ONLY might) impart some appreciation of reality.

In several states in US today the rules of Civil Procedure allow the records of the family bible to be admitted as evidence for the events recorded, births deaths marriages, etc. Such records establish a prima fascia case for the events alleged and are considered dispositive unless and until counter evidence is presented.

If the significance of that escapes you consider how it would sound if the same information was regarded as fact if recorded in the family copy of the Iliad or the Upanishads.

To me, it would sound the same, recording the family tree in a book. (And BTW, the Upanishads are considered Holy in Vedanta.)

For these people Christianity as they understand it is not some belief system. If orders their lives, dictates their daily routine, informs their most basic decisions. They will abandon their children before their will abandoned their “faith.”

I know.

I just found it funny how you used four people to represent millions.

And some people use Bibles to record their family trees. I fail to see the big deal, especially if they don't have their family trees anywhere else.

And, many people require the kind of order you've described. Should we hold it against them for that, especially since, try as they might, they cannot at this time do much other than shout? (I am aware that some may and almost certainly will commit hate crimes, but there's no way to know which ones will try.)

And what they record in the bible is "gospel." And accepted as such.

That's where they record the family tree.

 

[Riverwolf]

Why not? After all, we had progressed a long way and all that progress was lost due to an interruption of a power-hungry superstitious bunch of dweezles.

And, need I remind you, ALMOST got indefinitely interrupted forty years ago, by something that had nothing whatsoever to do with religion. (I shouldn't have to tell you what I'm referring to.)

 

[Riverwolf]

I think you have that backwards...

Nope.

"Why do you observe the splinter in your brother's eye and never notice the great log in your own? And how dare you say to your brother, 'Let me take that splinter out of your eye,' when, look, there is a great log in your own? Hypocrite! Take the log out of your own eye first, and then you will see clearly enough to take the splinter out of your brother's eye." (Matt. 7:3-5) (This is something I still fail on now and then.)

"Look not at the faults of others nor at what they do or leave undone; but only at your own deeds and deeds unachieved." (Dhammapada Verse 50, Chapter 4)

I believe I saw it in the Bhagavad-Gita, as well, but I can't remember where, and it would take me too long to find it.

 

[slave2six]

Jesus wasn't the only Sage who taught to focus on your own problems and not worry about others'.

Nope.

"Why do you observe the splinter in your brother's eye and never notice the great log in your own? And how dare you say to your brother, 'Let me take that splinter out of your eye,' when, look, there is a great log in your own? Hypocrite! Take the log out of your own eye first, and then you will see clearly enough to take the splinter out of your brother's eye." (Matt. 7:3-5) (This is something I still fail on now and then.)

"Look not at the faults of others nor at what they do or leave undone; but only at your own deeds and deeds unachieved." (Dhammapada Verse 50, Chapter 4)

I believe I saw it in the Bhagavad-Gita, as well, but I can't remember where, and it would take me too long to find it.

I see what you mean now. I was thinking in terms of helping others. But even within the confines of the statement above, the whole reason I am able to post is because I have in fact removed the log of Christianity (which caused me to see things not as they are but as the fable tells) from my eye. It doesn't say anything about not helping your brother after you've removed the plank or whatever from your own eye. Indeed, it goes on to say, "...and then you will see clearly enough to take the splinter out of your brother's eye."

 

[Riverwolf]

I see what you mean now. I was thinking in terms of helping others. But even within the confines of the statement above, the whole reason I am able to post is because I have in fact removed the log of Christianity (which caused me to see things not as they are but as the fable tells) from my eye. It doesn't say anything about not helping your brother after you've removed the plank or whatever from your own eye. Indeed, it goes on to say, "...and then you will see clearly enough to take the splinter out of your brother's eye."

Indeed, it does. And in terms of the variant of Christianity that you grew up with, you did remove the log from your eye, and therefore can see it for what it is.

But what Buddha says also is important. Don't worry about what others are doing wrong. Focus on your faults first.

And I'd also like to point out that NONE OF US can see things for what they really are. Such sight requires EXTREME discipline and meditation.

 

[sweetpea]

I agree with you in some ways. I too have a great deal of trouble with the existence of the Bible and other so called holy books. I think they are very misleading and can be the cause of alot of suffering and harm. On the other hand I do believe we have a creator and these stories totally distort how I see that creator. Storm talks about metaphors, and they likely are, but in many ways this is still dangerous because having these books written the way they are leaves the potential high for people to take what is written there literally. That is what I have a problem with because when they do that, it becomes dangerous imo.

The Bible was written by man. propbaly to keep us in line. Whilst there may be some basis for some of the texts in there, I think it had been hugely manipulated in order to create a belief system that no longer has a place in society.
Who wants to beleive in an Angry, vengeful God. Who wants the low self esteem of beleiving that they are sinners. Who wants to belief in a God that we are frightened of?
We should believe in our own truth, what feels right to us and we can still believe in God without being religious.

 

[challupa]

The Bible was written by man. propbaly to keep us in line. Whilst there may be some basis for some of the texts in there, I think it had been hugely manipulated in order to create a belief system that no longer has a place in society.
Who wants to beleive in an Angry, vengeful God. Who wants the low self esteem of beleiving that they are sinners. Who wants to belief in a God that we are frightened of?
We should believe in our own truth, what feels right to us and we can still believe in God without being religious.

Exactly, I don't want to believe in something like that. I can't understand why people do, but they just don't so, I accept that. There is zip reason for us to believe that God (if there is one) is just like us only he has the power to make it even worse for us than we do for eachother. It makes no sense. However, not much about God does make sense in the Bible and Quran. Not to me anyway.