Not a Terrorist Insurrection

[Revoltingest]

Then apparently no one is listening because it's not as if Libertarians are knocking citizens off their feet with better ideas. Libertarians are still pretty fringe, and I don't think it's because we aren't listening. I have listened. It sounds awesome but completely unrealistic.

When I've elaborated my preferred libertarian approaches to public
policy, I've noticed that you've never conversed about it with me.
You've made it clear that you see only an extreme version. It seems
you want a straw man against which to argue & win. That won't lead
to any understanding or detente.

Just more complaints. No solutions.

To be so determined to see the worst, & to believe you have The Truth
is not open minded. So we all end up with the liberal (& conservative)
status quo, which is pretty dismal in so many ways....trapped in the
box you don't think outside of.

 

[Revoltingest]

Other ilks are just as bad if not worse when it comes to straw men, stereotypes, overgeneralizations, demonization, etc. For example, labelling anything they don't like or understand as being "socialist" or "communist".
And let's not pretend that the "war on drugs", "the war on terror", "backing the blue", and everything all of that entails hasn't been immensely popular with conservatives.

I cannot defend the labeling used by the loudest of
either liberals or conservatives. But their extreme
exhortations shouldn't justify responding in kind.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Trump 2024

Trump (in prison) 2024

 

[Revoltingest]

I used to identify as libertarian, but I came to believe that trusting your fellow citizens - especially powerful entities such as corporations or churches - to behave ethically and responsibly to be unrealistic. I don't like "big government"; but at least it's supposed to be for, of, and by the people via democracy and have our interests at heart. I fear big business and big religion more. The upper classes have hoisted up the ladders as far as economic mobility goes. The wealth gap is widening, the cost of living is outpacing wages and salaries, etc. Some people work two jobs and barely scrape by. It's not the 1950's anymore.
Privatizing everything would be a nightmare; our healthcare is a predatory racket and is considered ghoulish by the rest of the developed world.

Who said everything must be privatized?
What I see is government having too much power over us,
eg, nearly unlimited authority for cops to beat & even kill us
with impunity. Government is able to wage wars that are
not even in self defense. We commit war crimes with impunity.
People lose their money & property because they had some
weed. Those are policies coming from both Dems & Pubs...
...from both libs & cons.
Do you think those are good policies, or could perhaps a
little movement in the libertarian direction offer progress?

Remember....to be Democrat, Republican, Libertarian,
Green, etc doesn't mean that you must agree with the
most extreme or perceived doctrinaire views found in
the party. Whichever philosophy or party you identify
with....do you agree with them all? Or do you see enuf
goals & merit to attract you?

I see a country desperately in need of becoming more
libertarian...not some imagined extreme version of
pure libertarianism (whatever that would even be
no one could ever agree upon).
How about lightening up the War On Drugs? How about
requiring cops to respect our 1st, 4th, 8th, & 14th
Amendment rights? How about not imprisoning so
very many people? Can you not agree with those
libertarian goals?

 

[Guitar's Cry]

By your reasoning, BLM & Antifa are also terrorists.
Setting cars on fire, attacking people, attacking city
halls....all the same as flying airplanes into buildings,
& bombing public places.
You can see how this expansion of the term makes
it so broad as to lose meaning.

This is correct. The Sons of Liberty were terrorists as well.

Whether or not that terrorism is justified is up to history and individual values.

 

[Revoltingest]

This is correct. The Sons of Liberty were terrorists as well.

Whether or not that terrorism is justified is up to history and individual values.

I just prefer that "terrorism" be more limited in application.
It would be a more useful term.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

I just prefer that terrorism be more limited in application.
It would be a more useful term.

I get that. It is certainly a loaded term. I don't think Cruz was wrong in his use of it, but I also think insurrection is a better term. In a technical sense, taken as a whole, I think it was both.

 

[Revoltingest]

I get that. It is certainly a loaded term. I don't think Cruz was wrong in his use of it, but I also think insurrection is a better term. In a technical sense, taken as a whole, I think it was both.

That's close enuf to detente.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

He finally grew a "pair"

And immediately lost them to Liar Tuck:

Ted Cruz Tells Tucker Carlson He Made a 'Sloppy' and 'Dumb' Mistake by Calling Jan. 6 a 'Terrorist Attack'

 

[Father Heathen]

Who said everything must be privatized?
What I see is government having too much power over us,
eg, nearly unlimited authority for cops to beat & even kill us
with impunity. Government is able to wage wars that are
not even in self defense. We commit war crimes with impunity.
People lose their money & property because they had some
weed. Those are policies coming from both Dems & Pubs...
...from both libs & cons.
Do you think those are good policies, or could perhaps a
little movement in the libertarian direction offer progress?

Remember....to be Democrat, Republican, Libertarian,
Green, etc doesn't mean that you must agree with the
most extreme or perceived doctrinaire views found in
the party. Whichever philosophy or party you identify
with....do you agree with them all? Or do you see enuf
goals & merit to attract you?

I see a country desperately in need of becoming more
libertarian...not some imagined extreme version of
pure libertarianism (whatever that would even be
no one could ever agree upon).
How about lightening up the War On Drugs? How about
requiring cops to respect our 1st, 4th, 8th, & 14th
Amendment rights? How about not imprisoning so
very many people? Can you not agree with those
libertarian goals?

I agree with most of that and I know the basic definition for libertarian is fiscally conservative and socially liberal, but I believe we should have universal health like the rest of the 1st world, among other social programs (that should serve as a safety net and a leg up, not a hammock.) We should also divert military and law enforcement spending into education.

Oh, and what's up with so many libertarians aligning themselves with evangelicals? Anything associated with them gets a hard pass from me.

 

[Revoltingest]

I agree with most of that and I know the basic definition for libertarian is fiscally conservative and socially liberal, but I believe we should have universal health like the rest of the 1st world, among other social programs (that should serve as a safety net and a leg up, not a hammock.)

I too favor universal health care. It's not because of any
philosophical reason, but rather in the interest of political
stability. Of course, I oppose the kind that Hillary proposed
back in the day, which made all private care illegal. I favor
the right to hire private care if one wants.
This is an example of putting some libertarian flavor in
a government run by libs & cons...make it less authoritarian,
but accomplish the same public policy (in a better way).

So if ever you decide to return to the libertarian fold,
you're allowed to temper your views. We don't require
total agreement. And your account is still held active.
(You won't have to pay the initiation fee.)

 

[Father Heathen]

I too favor universal health care. It's not because of any
philosophical reason, but rather in the interest of political
stability. Of course, I oppose the kind that Hillary proposed
back in the day, which made all private care illegal. I favor
the right to hire private care if one wants.
This is an example of putting some libertarian flavor in
a government run by libs & cons...make it less authoritarian,
but accomplish the same public policy (in a better way).

So if ever you decide to return to the libertarian fold,
you're allowed to temper your views. We don't require
total agreement. And your account is still held active.
(You won't have to pay the initiation fee.)

I don't oppose the 2nd amendment, but I think owning any sort of firearm should require training, testing, and licensing such as that for automobiles. Also, do we need bullet hoses for hunting, sport, or self defense? I don't think that would fly among libertarians. Also, I had added a thought to the last post after you've responded.

 

[Father Heathen]

And immediately lost them to Liar Tuck:

Ted Cruz Tells Tucker Carlson He Made a 'Sloppy' and 'Dumb' Mistake by Calling Jan. 6 a 'Terrorist Attack'

I think more republicans know and understand that Trump was a buffoon and that his shenanigans were a disaster, but also realize that not playing along will cost them their career; they gotta do the dance for their dopey voter base.

 

[Revoltingest]

I don't oppose the 2nd amendment, but I think owning any sort of firearm should require training, testing, and licensing such as that for automobiles. Also, do we need bullet hoses for hunting, sport, or self defense? I don't think that would fly among libertarians. Also, I had added a thought to the last post after you've responded.

I favor requiring training & secure storage.
This preserves the 2nd Amendment, while
reducing improper usage. That's libertarian.

 

[Father Heathen]

I favor requiring training & secure storage.
This preserves the 2nd Amendment, while
reducing improper usage. That's libertarian.

The problem is that *any* restriction and regulation is deliberately and deceptively misconstrued into "Commies are takin' away our guns and freedom!"

 

[Revoltingest]

The problem is that *any* restriction and regulation is deliberately and deceptively misconstrued into "Commies are takin' away our guns and freedom!"

Is such an extreme view the only option?
How about considering measures that are useful,
but with minimal imposition & restriction?

Too many people live in a world of black & white.
Consider optimization....not perfection.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

I think more republicans know and understand that Trump was a buffoon and that his shenanigans were a disaster, but also realize that not playing along will cost them their career; they gotta do the dance for their dopey voter base.

And Cruz likes to dance!

 

[Wandering Monk]

 

[metis]

And immediately lost them to Liar Tuck:

Ted Cruz Tells Tucker Carlson He Made a 'Sloppy' and 'Dumb' Mistake by Calling Jan. 6 a 'Terrorist Attack'

Ya, I saw that and feel the same way.

Right now, the Republican Party acts more like the Gestapo than with the quite respectable party that it used to be. And we've seen this here at RF with some accusing those who don't walk lockstep with Trump as being "RINO's".

 

[Father Heathen]

Is such an extreme view the only option?
How about considering measures that are useful,
but with minimal imposition & restriction?

Too many people live in a world of black & white.
Consider optimization....not perfection.

That was my point. I'm simultaneously a "gun nut" and "gun grabber" depending on who you ask.