Wandering Monk
Well-Known Member
I split my vote in 2020 among moderate Democrats and Republicans at Federal and State levels.
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Not a Terrorist Insurrection
- Thread starter The Hammer
- Start date
Wandering Monk
Well-Known Member
Post-election analysis showed Trump losing support among suburban Republicans from 2016 to 2020.
In my county, a suburb of the Twin Cities, Republican margins of victory in presidential races has been declining since at least 2012. Trump lost support here from 2016 to 2020. In 2016 Trump won by 13 points; in 2020 that margin was 5 points.
Republican Presidential Candidate Margin of Victory in my suburban Twin Cities county:
1984: 28% Reagan/Mondale
1988: 19% Bush/Dukakis
1992: 7% Bush/Clinton
1996: 4% Dole/Clinton
2000: 24% Bush/Gore
2004: 27% Bush/Kerry
2008: 15% McCain/Obama
2012: 20% Romney/Obama
2016: 13% Trump/Clinton
2020: 5% Trump/Biden
In my county, a suburb of the Twin Cities, Republican margins of victory in presidential races has been declining since at least 2012. Trump lost support here from 2016 to 2020. In 2016 Trump won by 13 points; in 2020 that margin was 5 points.
Republican Presidential Candidate Margin of Victory in my suburban Twin Cities county:
1984: 28% Reagan/Mondale
1988: 19% Bush/Dukakis
1992: 7% Bush/Clinton
1996: 4% Dole/Clinton
2000: 24% Bush/Gore
2004: 27% Bush/Kerry
2008: 15% McCain/Obama
2012: 20% Romney/Obama
2016: 13% Trump/Clinton
2020: 5% Trump/Biden
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Yes, the police on duty did their best to remove the trump mob from the Capital after they failed to seize power. The mob forced their way in and injured 140 police officers. They were removed so our representatives could preserve the nation by continuing the vote certification. Trump tried to stop this process.
And they will take it with them to prison because they broke numerous laws.
Some have even shown regret, and that they were blindly following trump's guidance.
No, but I don't think you see it. This is anger misplaced, and worked up by skilled propagandists. Many Americans are frustrated with dead-end lives, especially the rural, blue collar types. The American dream never came to fruition for them. Their lives are difficult living paycheck to paycheck, they are in debt, with no light at the end of the tunnel. They see others living well, especially people in suits driving cars they'll never own, or in the media, and feel left out.
They found a friend in conservative indoctrination media, a friend to tell them it's liberals, immigrants, and people of color that have put these barriers in their lives, when their enemies are the people the trust telling them this, people who work to keep their wages and benefits at a minimum. Their propagandists show them images of sophisticated urbanites and tell their viewers that they are elitist that see them as the Beverly Hillbillies.
So, they carry Don't Tread On Me Flags. They learn to hate Hollywood, Democrats, university culture, education, and science, all of which they associate with this subculture out of reach for them that left them behind and now laugh at them. This is what they are told, this is what they believe, and why they want to "own" these people, even to the point of destroying the country, like a despondent person wanting to commit suicide, but also so angry that he wants to take the local third grade with him. He doesn't mind dying if he can kill his perceived enemy in the process
Then they are told that their election was stolen from them by these same propagandists, who continue to manipulate them, this time to violent insurrection. That's why they're angry. You've bought in to the propagandists' grievance for them to learn and repeat. They've been oppressed, with frequent references to liberty and patriotism, and of taking the nation back from the thieving liberals - like a mob with torches in a Frankenstein movie storming the castle.
So, yes, it's not hard to see the reason for their anger, but you have to look for yourself and critically evaluate the evidence. If you do, you will come to a different conclusion than you did.
There's a Bob Dylan song License To Kill that includes this, which I find quite apt:
Now, they take him, and they teach him, and they groom him for life
And they set him, on a path where he's bound to get ill
Now he's hell-bent for destruction, he's afraid and confused
And his brain has been mismanaged with great skill
And they set him, on a path where he's bound to get ill
Now he's hell-bent for destruction, he's afraid and confused
And his brain has been mismanaged with great skill
Gun rights are not under threat. If there is any threat it is the use of guns in mass shootings and murders that are pressuring citizens to demand governments impose regulations on people who are not responsible with guns. Gun advocates would be smart to cooperate with gun safety advocates to have regulations that will make society safer. These won't affect the vast majority of people. It is irrational to allow so much easy access to guns to a degree that mass shootings continue to occur.
This is not a thing. There are slander and libel laws that are enforceable, but that is civil, not criminal.
If you are complaining about private companies enforcing their own freedom and liberties to set rules for their products, then you need to appeal to representatives to force private companies to do things against their will. That will sabotage liberty.
Like when trump refused to let citizens have areas of free speech in places he could see protests? yeah. We need to work of that. Let's note it was an authoritarian republican who limited the freedom and liberty of citizens for his own ego.
Great, you want police reform, especially reform of departments that target minorities.
Like not mandating masks as we see in a few republican states, like Florida? How many have died due to a lack of responsible leadership that enforces public safety measures?
Keep going on. This is fun for liberals. You seem to think poor leadership (or just republicans dead set on being opposed anything democrats are working towards) is an advantage to civil order and safety, but those views don't back that up. Does anyone think Desantis will be able to run for president with his Florida death rate? Even businesses are fighting him over his dangerous policies.
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
I've asked before to no avail, but I have to ask again, which freedoms are you talking about?
And please don't just respond with "it's so obvious that I'm not actually going to list any." That's not an answer.
Sgt. Pepper
All you need is love.
Are you complaining about the time the police cleared out some protestors, and then Trump had a photo-op taken of him holding a bible in front of the historic St. John's Episcopal Church? Yeah, I agree that was pretty low of him. I'm surprised that the bible didn't catch on fire when he touched it. Of course, he defended himself, Trump Defends Church Photo Op: ‘I Think It Was Very Symbolic’.
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Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Wiki placed the origins of these dystopian regulations squarely on the duopoly that still rules at this moment.....Are you complaining about the time Trump had the police clear out some protestors, so he could a photo-op of himself holding a bible in front of the historic St. John's Episcopal Church? Yeah, I agree that was pretty low of him. I'm honestly surprised that the bible didn't catch on fire when he touched it.
Snippet...
Although free speech zones existed prior to the Presidency of George W. Bush, it was during Bush's presidency that their scope was greatly expanded.[5] These zones continued through the presidency of Barack Obama, who signed a bill in 2012 that expanded the power of the Secret Service to restrict speech and make arrests.[6] Many colleges and universities earlier instituted free speech zone rules during the Vietnam-era protests of the 1960s and 1970s. In recent years, a number of them have revised or removed these restrictions following student protests and lawsuits.[citation needed]
Unfortunately the removal of some restrictions have been superficial at best.
"Free speech" versus civil disorder. Remember how the Tea Party folks were protesting Obama and other democrats for healthcare reform? It got pretty violent. Members of congress were attacked. For example Rep. Cleaver form Kansas City, who is black, was spat on by numerous Tea Party folks as he walked into the Capitol. These people were not arrested. Is that speech?
For the most part many of them got away with this disorder due to broad freedoms of speech. At some point this freedom gets abused by extremists, and order needs to be imposed. We can allow freedom of speech without allowing violent protests to become a pattern of behavior. Bush and Obama saw the rise in unreasonable disorder and sought to maintain order and public safety. If citizens can't manage themselves in a safe and responsible manner then those hired to manage our society will have to impose policies that ensure safety and order.
Republicans and Libertarians always cry for freedom and liberty, but we don't hear then call out for being responsible citizens with those liberties.
You don't hear it because you don't listen.
Illiberal liberals....your ilk so loves to stereotype, to mischaracterize,
to demonize people with different views. Yet where are you when
government abuses its authority, eg, civil forfeiture, wrongful wars,
War on Drugs, 1994 Crime Bill, police brutality & corruption.
I see your type ignoring or even defending the status quo.
Liberals...I see what you do when you have the power, ie,
the presidency & Congress. It's the same old same old.
Caution:
I know some liberals who value civil liberties, peace,
& justice. If only they were the majority.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Not all Conservatives, but all Evangelicals. It is literally a part of their Doomsday theology. All Dominionists want a Christian Caliphate. The Christian Right believes it necessary for them to occupy and hijack secular societies.
This isn't pretend, this isn't mischaracterizing them. I was one of them and it's how they are.
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FWIW, I didn't say anyone was mischaracterizing
those particular religious orientations.
In the news, Cruz walks back his claim of terrorism.
Ted Cruz grovels to Tucker Carlson over Jan. 6 ‘terrorist attack’ remark
Excerpted....
Cruz proceeded to say that he has long labeled those who attack police officers as terrorists, and that’s merely what he was doing here.
This is interesting. Attacking a cop is terrorism. Is this because
violent assault will strike terror for a political purpose? If so,
then cops who attack civilians under color of authority would
be state terrorism. (The goal being to cow the populace into
obeying their every command, legal or not.)
Ted Cruz grovels to Tucker Carlson over Jan. 6 ‘terrorist attack’ remark
Excerpted....
Cruz proceeded to say that he has long labeled those who attack police officers as terrorists, and that’s merely what he was doing here.
This is interesting. Attacking a cop is terrorism. Is this because
violent assault will strike terror for a political purpose? If so,
then cops who attack civilians under color of authority would
be state terrorism. (The goal being to cow the populace into
obeying their every command, legal or not.)
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Wandering Monk
Well-Known Member
An assertion needs to be measurable in order to critique it. Not measurable? No critique possible! A very handy place to be if you are talking out your hind quarters.
Father Heathen
Veteran Member
No. It was the forum holding onto an uncompleted reply that I hadn't noticed was left in the field. It was going to regard libertarianism and privatization.
Father Heathen
Veteran Member
Which party has opposed freedom regarding reproduction, marriage, cannabis, enlistment, adult entertainment, gaming (as in casinos, sports betting, etc.), etc.
No, not really. Nobody is coming for your guns. That's just scaremongering used to manipulate gullible dopes.
How so? What law? If you're referring to social media, private businesses aren't government and are within their own right to not provide a soapbox for people who violate their policies and user agreements.
Besides conservatives hate the 1st amendment, especially when it comes to burning flags, kneeling during the anthem, the establishment clause, etc. They want to mandate pledges and prayers in school, etc
The only instance of such a thing I can recall was enacted by G.W.Bush, a Republican.
So politicians are randomly handcuffing children? I think you mean cops, the right's knights in shining armor who can do no wrong? I thought conservatives hated those who complain about police misconduct?
What does this even mean? The "tyranny" of stop lights and speed limits?
Of course you could; asspulls are limitless.
It happens.
BTW, I'm awake, & me jaw is properly positioned.
(Still drooling though.)
Then apparently no one is listening because it's not as if Libertarians are knocking citizens off their feet with better ideas. Libertarians are still pretty fringe, and I don't think it's because we aren't listening. I have listened. It sounds awesome but completely unrealistic.
Here's an example. Just more complaints. No solutions.
Why not state a problem, and then offer a solution? Be sure it is plausible and realistic.
Father Heathen
Veteran Member
Other ilks are just as bad if not worse when it comes to straw men, stereotypes, overgeneralizations, demonization, etc. For example, labelling anything they don't like or understand as being "socialist" or "communist".
And let's not pretend that the "war on drugs", "the war on terror", "backing the blue", and everything all of that entails hasn't been immensely popular with conservatives.
Father Heathen
Veteran Member
I used to identify as libertarian, but I came to believe that trusting your fellow citizens - especially powerful entities such as corporations or churches - to behave ethically and responsibly to be unrealistic. I don't like "big government"; but at least it's supposed to be for, of, and by the people via democracy and have our interests at heart. I fear big business and big religion more. The upper classes have hoisted up the ladders as far as economic mobility goes. The wealth gap is widening, the cost of living is outpacing wages and salaries, etc. Some people work two jobs and barely scrape by. It's not the 1950's anymore.
Privatizing everything would be a nightmare; our healthcare is a predatory racket and is considered ghoulish by the rest of the developed world.