Not a Terrorist Insurrection

[Revoltingest]

Is there a reason for that? Are we not, after all, a social species that needs to find some means of succeeding together? That is, in my view, a big part of party politics, and of course libertarians (small "l") aren't "party" at all.

Libertarians too are social species...but with less
government & more liberty....very threatening ideas
to the left & right. Oh no! People will be smoking
dope! Gays will be boinking each other! Atheists
will be testifying in court! People will be saying
profane things to politicians! The horror!

BTW, we have a party...even one in Canuckistan.

@Revoltingest I do get where you're coming from -- I really do. I've tried to tell you about my politics, which is all confused -- liberal about how people should live their lives, a capitalist because that's where wealth is built...

You just espoused libertarian values. Even
liberals & conservatives will at times find some
common ground with us.

....but concerned that even capitalism (like all human activities) can't be totally unfettered, that we need rules. It's messy, I agree. But as a "Libertarian," you ought to be prepared for that.

The old "totally unfettered" straw man, eh.
That's as accurate as saying Democrats want pure
communism, & Republicans want a theocracy run
by a Christian caliphate.
Time to consider what really is....not pretend the extremes.

 

[F1fan]

By your reasoning, BLM & Antifa are also terrorists.

BLM organized to protest police brutality peacefully. That 7% of those who showed up to cause trouble were not part of the core mission. Plus investigations found many white supremacists caused trouble and violence to negatively affect their reputation.

And antifa is a lose group that attacks conservative ******** like the people who attacked the Capitol, not ordinary citizens. It's a sort of karmic group.

Setting cars on fire, attacking people, attacking city
halls....all the same as flying airplanes into buildings,
& bombing public places.
You can see how this expansion of the term makes
it so broad as to lose meaning.

All fringe actors denounced by organizers. Only a few republicans today condemn the Jan 6 riot. That suggests the violence and threat is acceptable to the GOP.

 

[Revoltingest]

The biggest weakness of Libertarians is human beings. Libertarians want few laws, and more personal responsibility. But we can see daily that many Americans are not responsible people. They aren't even accountable once caught being unethical or immoral or criminal. We are a people who need many laws. The laws are not needed for the many, but the few who are not personally responsible. These bad actors pose a threat and there is little ways to teach them anything useful about social contract. trump is one such person.

And you non-libertarians want The War On Drugs,
civil forfeiture, speech regulation, cancel culture,
immunity for cops, etc, etc. (That's what you've
given us.)
Instead of criticizing the extremes you imagine, try
considering that for any given public policy goal,
it can be achieved in several different ways. Just
pick the most libertarian option.
Duh!
For example, we still have cis-males register for
the draft (for if/when it returns). I prefer the
libertarian approach, ie, compensate soldiers enuf
to do it voluntarily. No one need be coerced.
And it's fair...not a burden to be borne solely
by young healthy males with low lottery numbers
but no political connections.

 

[F1fan]

Their transformation into an incoherent cartoon cult has been a bizarre spectacle; a malignant tumor that actually sees itself as the heart of the nation.

I think it would not take much for them to respond to a call for violence by any one of the fringe leadership. If trump said to attack X, would they?

His Twitter is cut off, so that helps.

 

[F1fan]

And you non-libertarians want The War On Drugs,
civil forfeiture, speech regulation, cancel culture,
immunity for cops, etc, etc. (That's what you've
given us.)

Man, you are lumping in Reagan and who knows who else in this obsolete list. This are mostly republican ideas. And as afar as speech regulation? I suggest the existence of FOX and other conservative media is regulating true reporting by media. So what you are complaining about are the very things that freedom has caused. A free-for-all means chaos. And no society where the economy is important can function in chaos.

Instead of criticizing the extremes you imagine, try
considering that for any given public policy goal,
it can be achieved in several different ways. Why
not pick the most libertarian option?
For example, we still have cis-males register for
the draft (for if/when it returns). I prefer the
libertarian approach, ie, compensate soldiers enuf
to do it voluntarily. No one need be coerced.
And it's fair...not a burden to be borne solely
by young healthy males with low lottery numbers
but no political connections.

That's pretty liberal.

Liberalism tends to favor freedom, and fight against prejudice. With libertarianism you allow the freedom for prejudice, thus harm to marginalized groups.

 

[Revoltingest]

BLM organized to protest police brutality peacefully.

Some did.
Some committed violence.
This is much like the MAGAs.

Or does "terrorism" apply to the right, but not the left?

That 7% of those who showed up to cause trouble were not part of the core mission. Plus investigations found many white supremacists caused trouble and violence to negatively affect their reputation.

And antifa is a lose group that attacks conservative ******** like the people who attacked the Capitol, not ordinary citizens. It's a sort of karmic group.


All fringe actors denounced by organizers. Only a few republicans today condemn the Jan 6 riot. That suggests the violence and threat is acceptable to the GOP.

I'm sensing some version of the No True Scotsman.
This new broad use of the epithet "terrorist" must
only apply to those damnable people on the right.
It's about who they are...not what is done.

 

[Revoltingest]

Man, you are lumping in Reagan and who knows who else in this obsolete list. This are mostly republican ideas.

I'm addressing all you non-libertarians, ie, the left & the right.
But your much vaunted Biden was the main architect behind
the 1994 Crime Bill, which put many tens of thousands more
people behind bars for drug offenses.

And as afar as speech regulation? I suggest the existence of FOX and other conservative media is regulating true reporting by media. So what you are complaining about are the very things that freedom has caused. A free-for-all means chaos. And no society where the economy is important can function in chaos.

The left has been the driving force behind limiting
free speech on campuses. Bill Clinton also had a
horrible record on free speech. And Obama is the
top all time persecutor of government whistle blowers.

That's pretty liberal.

Liberals loved the draft. They used it to a great
extent, especially Johnson. Other Democrats
loved it, eg, Chas Rangel. They saw it as a great
melting pot to mix social classes & races...except
for those with great enuf privilege to evade it, eg,
Bill Clinton, Joe Biden.
And they certainly didn't want to mix the genders.
Hypocrites....not libertarian...they're liberal.

Liberalism tends to favor freedom, and fight against prejudice. With libertarianism you allow the freedom for prejudice, thus harm to marginalized groups.

Liberals favor prejudice too. Obama was the one
who instituted the presumption of guilt for male
college students accused of sexual misconduct.
And who put more black guys in prison than any
other....Joe Biden. Who put blacks in segregated
high crime public housing....liberals. Who runs
the cities that hire cops to murder blacks, Indians,
non-neurotypicals, etc....Democrats...& Republicans.

So when you say libertarian is only the extreme flavor
you imagine, & nothing practical....be prepared to
see the extreme version of your side, the Republicrats.
Note also that your side's actual practices are dismal.

 

[anna.]

Only if Hillary is in tow....

I wish I could remember who here tried to tell me that people don't still bring up Hillary apropos of nothing.

 

[F1fan]

I'm addressing all you non-libertarians, ie, the left & the right.
But your much vaunted Biden was the main architect behind
the 1994 Crime Bill, which put many tens of thousands more
people behind bars for drug offenses.

That was the Gingrich congress that was trying to go to the next level o Reagan's war on drugs. Biden voted for it? Well it was popular back then. They thought hitting drug users hard would help minimize drug use. It didn't work. Now it is liberalism that is pushing the for legalizing pot, as a first step.

The left has been the driving force behind limiting
free speech on campuses. Bill Clinton also had a
horrible record on free speech. And Obama is the
top all time persecutor of government whistle blowers.

Oh, you mean how right wing extremists get booted from colleges because their angry rhetoric poses a threat to campus safety?

Maybe the problem is too much personal responsibility for people who can't handle the responsibility.

Liberals loved the draft. They used it to a great
extent, especially Johnson. Other Democrats
loved it, eg, Chas Rangel. They saw it as a great
melting pot to mix social classes & races...except
for those with great enuf privilege to evade it, eg,
Bill Clinton, Joe Biden.
And they certainly didn't want to mix the genders.
Hypocrites....not libertarian...they're liberal.

The liberals who got drafted weren't fans of the draft. I had to register when I turned 18 and many of my classmates were scared and pissed since Reagan was president and we were expecting a war. Fortunately he just spent and borrowed a lot of money.

It sounds like you just don't like anyone. You don't like republican policies, and you don't like the democrats who voted with them.

Liberals favor prejudice too. Obama was the one
who instituted the presumption of guilt for male
college students accused of sexual misconduct.

I remember that coming from a lot of rapists being let off the hook because they were good boys on some sports team. And we don't want their futures ruined just because they are rapists, do we? I don't remember details, but I have a problem with a system where boys are trusted and girls are not. Where's the liberty for rape victims? Or did they have it coming since they don't have male privilege?

The solution: teach boys not to rape so girls have the liberty of their body autonomy.

And who put more black guys in prison than any
other....Joe Biden. Who put blacks in segregated
high crime public housing....liberals. Who runs
the cities that hire cops to murder blacks, Indians,
non-neurotypicals, etc....Democrats...& Republicans.

Could Libertairans do better? Would they spend money to invest in high crime areas, or just let the fallout happen, as long as it didn't come into your neighborhood?

So when you say libertarian is only the extreme flavor
you imagine, & nothing practical....be prepared to
see the extreme version of your side, the Republicrats.
Note also that your side's actual practices are dismal.

I'm aware that Libertarians have few solutions. They want to let feral humans run wild, and then what? That will do what? Create a safe and stable society? No. Chaos and disorder, until that is unacceptable even for Libertarians.

 

[Stonetree]

Libertarians too are social species...but with less
government & more liberty....very threatening ideas
to the left & right. Oh no! People will be smoking
dope! Gays will be boinking each other! Atheists
will be testifying in court! People will be saying
profane things to politicians! The horror!

BTW, we have a party...even one in Canuckistan.

You just espoused libertarian values. Even
liberals & conservatives will at times find some
common ground with us.

The old "totally unfettered" straw man, eh.
That's as accurate as saying Democrats want pure
communism, & Republicans want a theocracy run
by a Christian caliphate.
Time to consider what really is....not pretend the extremes.

A title, conservative, liberal, libertarian can create more problems than can be helpful in a discussion. The subject in discussion has to be more definitive. Hasn't anyone here ever registered as a Republican and then as a Democrat? When I was young I was told to register in the party of the closest living politician( he was most likely to do a favor for a neighbor). It worked! The politician worked for a judge and a job opening became available and he asked my father if I would be interested.

 

[Revoltingest]

I'm aware that Libertarians have few solutions. They want to let feral humans run wild....

If it's to be about extreme straw men, then....
You lefties want Great Leap Forward style communism,
with severe government oppression, & its failures
causing mass starvation.

See what I did there?
I used your own tool against your side.
Now, if we can settle back down into some reality,
you might recognize that when there are multiple
ways to enact a public policy, the more libertarian
option just might look attractive.
Milton Friedman had been arguing for a volunteer
military long before it was fashionable. And it finally
happened....not under a liberal...under Nixon.

 

[F1fan]

Some did.
Some committed violence.
This is much like the MAGAs.

Well if that is the case it does not reflect the mission of BLM nor the vast majority seeking police reform.

MAGAs took direction from the top. And now nearly the whole GOP is complicit with the efforts to corrupt our elections.

Or does "terrorism" apply to the right, but not the left?

Terrorism applies to anyone who deliberately threatens citizens and public servants. This is right wing phenomenon at this time in history, and a serious problem for the USA.

I'm sensing some version of the No True Scotsman.
This new broad use of the epithet "terrorist" must
only apply to those damnable people on the right.
It's about who they are...not what is done.

I suspect your dilemma is that you are seeing different types of terrorists that are different from what we typically are aware of. What we are observing of these right wing political activists is that they believe they are correct, that liberals are evil, that they are entitled to leadership, and that anything goes in how they behave. School board members are being threatened and harassed. Election board members are being threatened. These are all people who oppose what democrats advocate for, like vaccinations, public safety, secure elections to more people, etc.

If you are a Libertarian and think integrity is important then you should be aligning with democrats and fighting for more voting access. That is liberty.

 

[Revoltingest]

A title, conservative, liberal, libertarian can create more problems than can be helpful in a discussion. The subject in discussion has to be more definitive. Hasn't anyone here ever registered as a Republican and then as a Democrat? When I was young I was told to register in the party of the closest living politician( he was most likely to do a favor for a neighbor). It worked! The politician worked for a judge and a job opening became available and he asked my father if I would be interested.

We live in a world of labels. Some are useful.
"Libertarian" identifies a philosophy different from
liberals, conservatives, & theocrats.

Note:
There are problems with "liberal" & "conservative" cuz
N Ameristanian & Eurostanian definitions differ.
Given the forum this thread inhabits, I'm assuming
N Ameristanian usages.

 

[Revoltingest]

Well if that is the case it does not reflect the mission of BLM nor the vast majority seeking police reform.

MAGAs took direction from the top. And now nearly the whole GOP is complicit with the efforts to corrupt our elections.


Terrorism applies to anyone who deliberately threatens citizens and public servants. This is right wing phenomenon at this time in history, and a serious problem for the USA.


I suspect your dilemma is that you are seeing different types of terrorists that are different from what we typically are aware of. What we are observing of these right wing political activists is that they believe they are correct, that liberals are evil, that they are entitled to leadership, and that anything goes in how they behave. School board members are being threatened and harassed. Election board members are being threatened. These are all people who oppose what democrats advocate for, like vaccinations, public safety, secure elections to more people, etc.

If you are a Libertarian and think integrity is important then you should be aligning with democrats and fighting for more voting access. That is liberty.

Liberals seem to always think they have The Truth, &
I should side with them because conservatives are just
evil. You over-estimate your truthiness. And I don't
share your penchant for authoritarianism.

It's a corrupting thing to see yourself as better than
others. It blinds you to any merit on their side.
And it blinds you to sins on your own.

I'll pick & choose policies I find most libertarian
from among the workable & legal options. This
might even mean disagreeing with my own party's
platform.

 

[Stonetree]

Well if that is the case it does not reflect the mission of BLM nor the vast majority seeking police reform.

MAGAs took direction from the top. And now nearly the whole GOP is complicit with the efforts to corrupt our elections.


Terrorism applies to anyone who deliberately threatens citizens and public servants. This is right wing phenomenon at this time in history, and a serious problem for the USA.


I suspect your dilemma is that you are seeing different types of terrorists that are different from what we typically are aware of. What we are observing of these right wing political activists is that they believe they are correct, that liberals are evil, that they are entitled to leadership, and that anything goes in how they behave. School board members are being threatened and harassed. Election board members are being threatened. These are all people who oppose what democrats advocate for, like vaccinations, public safety, secure elections to more people, etc.

If you are a Libertarian and think integrity is important then you should be aligning with democrats and fighting for more voting access. That is liberty.

We live in a world of labels. Some are useful.
"Libertarian" identifies a philosophy different from
liberals, conservatives, & theocrats.

Note:
There are problems with "liberal" & "conservative" cuz
N Ameristanian & Eurostanian definitions differ.
Given the forum this thread inhabits, I'm assuming
N Ameristanian usages.

I've taken brow beatings because "Muslims", a title does not tell you anything about a human being in my opinion. There are Muslims who have died defending what I see as American values. There are so called Muslims who would cut your throat if they knew you were an American. It's a problem that we live in a world of 'titles'.

 

[Revoltingest]

Well if that is the case it does not reflect the mission of BLM nor the vast majority seeking police reform.

Most people at the Capitol didn't invade it.
Most were peaceful.

If you defended them using the same standards
you grant to BLM & Antifa, you might find that
they weren't terrorists.

If you criticized BLM & Antifa using the same
standards for "terrorist" you apply to the insurrectionists,
then all would be guilty of terrorism.

If you are a Libertarian and think integrity is important then you should be aligning with democrats and fighting for more voting access. That is liberty.

If you were a real liberal, & think integrity is important, you wouldn't
support the Democrats. You'd fight civil forfeiture abuse, police
immunity, interminable wars, high taxes on the poor, the 94
Crime Bill, etc, etc.

See what I did there?

 

[Revoltingest]

I've taken brow beatings because "Muslims", a title does not tell you anything about a human being in my opinion. There are Muslims who have died defending what I see as American values. There are so called Muslims who would cut your throat if they knew you were an American. It's a problem that we live in a world of 'titles'.

Labels convey limited information.

 

[Stonetree]

Labels convey limited information.

I know what you are conveying......but what democrat here does not respect John Mc Cain? I believe being a Republican is to be someone's privilege and I know a true democrat would agree.

 

[Stonetree]

I know what you are conveying......but what democrat here does not respect John Mc Cain? I believe being a Republican is to be someone's privilege and I know a true democrat would agree.

I don't see Libertarians as anarchist......I support correcting our problems, Criminal Justice system, Infrastructure, tax reform but throwing money against the wall I don't support.If Industry needs regulation, so does spending.

 

[Truthseeker]

Republicans criticize Ted Cruz for calling Jan. 6 a violent terrorist attack

GOP has turned on Ted Cruz for actually telling it like it is. Shame.

Carlson should be sacked by Murdoch, but he values profits over everything else.