Nothing lasts forever in this life

[Spirit of Light]

Someone who understands what words mean and how they apply to concepts.

So if Bahaism contains anything that is intolerant, divisive, discriminatory, violent, oppressive, etc - then it s not a good religion and people should withdraw from it. Correct?

So women are allowed to serve on the Universal House of Justice?

I do not speak for others about what do.

As a new Baha'i i have a lot of scriptures to read before i look in to the House of Justice and what they do.

 

[KWED]

No, your disbelieve is what make it impossible to meet you halfway.

But your belief doesn't make it impossible for me to meet you halfway.
Seems that disbelief is more tolerant, open-minded and reasonable than belief.
Who knew!

 

[KWED]

I do not speak for others about what do.

You just quoted Bahaullah as saying that very thing. He said that people should withdraw from such religions, and to Bahais, his word is the infallible word of god.

As a new Baha'i i have a lot of scriptures to read before i look in to the House of Justice and what they do.

Ok. As a non-Bahai, let me inform you. Women are not allowed to serve on the UHJ.

Now, rather than withdrawing from Bahaism, as Bahaullah recommended in the passage you quoted, you will no doubt try to present some "reason" for why sexual discrimination is actually a good thing.

Then we can move on to the homophobia and barbaric punishments when you are ready...

 

[Trailblazer]

Of course there is a halfway point, as I have explained.
You admit that your beliefs are beliefs that are unprovable. Therefore logic and reason dictate that you must accept that all of the three options (delusion, dishonesty, actual god) are possible - as I do.

I have proven to myself that my beliefs are true. I don't have to prove that to anyone else.
Therefore, logic and reason says that I do not have to accept the possibility of any other options.
The hundred-dollar question is why it bothers you so much what I believe.

You have posted several times against the ideas of insisting you must be right, and refusing to meet people halfway.

So, are you going to insist you are right and refuse to meet me halfway?
Or are you going to live up to the standards you expect others to live up to?

I do not insist on anything. It is you who is insisting that I think I am right.
This has nothing to do with me being right. It is all about what I believe is true.
Only ego insists that someone has to be right or wrong.
I do not expect anyone to live up to any standards.

 

[Trailblazer]

Those with an open mind and rational thought will not claim certainty about something that can never be verified. That is logic 101.

It is you who needs verification on what can never be verified. A rational person does not expect to be able to verify God. That is logic 101.

I got my certainty from God. There is no other higher source of Truth.

"Be thankful to God for having enabled you to recognize His Cause. Whoever has received this blessing must, prior to his acceptance, have performed some deed which, though he himself was unaware of its character, was ordained by God as a means whereby he has been guided to find and embrace the Truth. As to those who have remained deprived of such a blessing, their acts alone have hindered them from recognizing the truth of this Revelation. We cherish the hope that you, who have attained to this light, will exert your utmost to banish the darkness of superstition and unbelief from the midst of the people. May your deeds proclaim your faith and enable you to lead the erring into the paths of eternal salvation."

(Baha'u'llah, quoted in Shoghi Effendi, The Dawn-Breakers, p. 586)
The Dawn-Breakers: Nabíl’s Narrative of the Early Days of the Bahá’í Revelation, p. 586

 

[Trailblazer]

It is those who insist they are right about something even when it cannot be verified

I never insisted I was right, I only ever said I believe.

 

[Trailblazer]

You are constantly posting on a religious debate forum, making claims of absolute certainty and arguing with those you disagree with, so you clearly do care about what other people think about this.

I say I am certain when asked, because I am certain.
I am not arguing with anyone and I do not care what people think about my beliefs.
You cannot know what I care about, only I can know that.

 

[Trailblazer]

You and Seeker were the one who brought up the issue of "being right and wrong", etc.

Trailblazer said: What some atheists such as @KWED totally miss is that NONE of this is about who is right and who is wrong.

You are the one who is making this all about right and wrong.

KWED said: So, do you accept that your belief about Bahaullah might be wrong, or do you insist that it is right?

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes. And you have to accept what Bahaullah said, because that's what Bahaullah said.

I do not have to accept anything because I have free will.
I choose to accept what Baha'u'llah said, because that's what Baha'u'llah said.

 

[Trailblazer]

I am not claiming to know what you meant. I specifically said that I didn't.
I am only commenting on what the words you used mean when used in that order.

I have never see such a blatant contradiction in my entire life!

 

[Trailblazer]

Do you accept that your belief about Bahaullah being an actual messenger of an actual god might be wrong?

No, because none of this is about right or wrong, it is all about true or false.

I do not accept that my belief about Baha'ullah is false because I believe it is true.
Case closed.

 

[Trailblazer]

I haven't asked you to step away from you beliefs.

That is exactly what you have asked @Seeker of White Light to do.

 

[Goldemar]

No, because none of this is about right or wrong, it is all about true or false.

I do not accept that my belief about Baha'ullah is false because I believe it is true.
Case closed.

Do you not think it possible that one can believe something to be true but still be open to the possibility that one could be wrong? I myself hold a number of beliefs (about things, which I believe to be true), but I am still open to the possibility that I am wrong in holding those things to be true.

 

[Trailblazer]

So it is your ego that is preventing you from meeting me halfway.

No, it is my belief. I am not going to relinquish it because I know it is true.

But you said that god's existence cannot be proven, so you can't know if it is true. You can only believe it.

I cannot know it as a fact, but I know it is true. How I know is not something you can understand since you are not me.

So you are insisting that you are right, even though you can't prove that you are right, and you were complaining about people who claim they are right.

I never complained about people who claim they are right.
I never insisted I am right. This has nothing to do with right or wrong.
I said I know what is true because I have proven it to myself over the course of 52 years.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

I have proven to myself that my beliefs are true. I don't have to prove that to anyone else.
Therefore, logic and reason says that I do not have to accept the possibility of any other options.
The hundred-dollar question is why it bothers you so much what I believe.

In my personal opinion, that's all that truly matters is that you have proven to yourself that your beliefs are true. It does not matter what someone else on this board thinks about your beliefs or if your beliefs are true to them or not. I don't think it matter what some stranger on the internet or someone else you know in real life thinks about your spiritual beliefs. I guess some people don't know how to live and let live. I feel the same way as you do when another member on this board falsely accused me of never being a Christian when I was one because my Christian beliefs didn't exactly align with theirs. I thought I would repost what I wrote earlier on in this thread since the topic is again about a demand to prove that your God is real and that your beliefs are true. Stay strong, my friend.

I believe that you are correct when you say that no one can prove that God exists, and I do not believe that anyone can disprove the existence of God either. And this is why I am an agnostic and not an atheist when it concerns the existence of the Christian God. In my opinion, no one, not me, you, or anyone else, can empirically or independently demonstrate whether God or any other god is real or not. No human has ever searched across all of space and time to give verifiable and empirical proof for the existence of deities, since humans lack omniscience, omnipotence, and the capacity to exist everywhere at once. We make decisions on whether or not to believe in gods or the supernatural based on the limited knowledge we have. As I previously stated, I was a Christian and I believed in one God but now I am a Wiccan who believes in multiple deities. However, I am unable to independently and scientifically prove the existence of these deities. By the same token, I am unable to independently and empirically prove whether the Christian God exists or not. And although I am unable to demonstrate the existence of any deities, I still choose to believe because I have my reasons for my spiritual beliefs and I believe in the afterlife. I'm aware that my belief in these deities is only supported by anecdotal evidence and it doesn't satisfy the requirements for empirical and verifiable evidence. Likewise, Christians who say, "God saved me and transformed my life" or "I feel God's presence in my life, so I know he is real," fall short of the standards for empirical and verifiable evidence too.

 

[Trailblazer]

Do you not think it possible that one can believe something to be true but still be open to the possibility that one could be wrong? I myself hold a number of beliefs (about things, which I believe to be true), but I am still open to the possibility that I am wrong in holding those things to be true.

Yes, I think that is possible for a belief to be true or false.

 

[Goldemar]

Yes, I think that is possible for a belief to be true or false.

Okay, so are you saying that you are open to the possibility that your beliefs are false?

 

[CG Didymus]

It's not about how "grand" the civilization is, but the moral level of the civilization, and the level of true enlightment.

How they were able to get so big and grand would be interesting to find out. But whose got time for that. I was wondering about what you thought about the morals and enlightenment they did have, since they did have a religion and a belief in some kind of God... And lots of time their leader/ruler was believed to be divine. I think Christians believe that those religions were all false. But what about the Baha'i Faith? Since Baha'is believe there are false beliefs even in Christianity. So, like the Egyptian or Greek religion, are they completely false? Or, like Christianity, were at one time pure but got corrupted over time?

For me, none of them had to ever be "pure". I think they were all based on people's ideas of what spiritual truths was. And from there, myths and legends of Gods and prophets evolved. So, for me, the myths of the Egyptians and Greeks weren't ever true, but neither were the myths that evolved into the supposed "true" religions. But the myths did play a part in bonding the society and culture and did help in enabling that society to grow and become powerful enough to go out and conquer others and become a great empire.

With Christians, I don't know how "pure" the teachings were that allowed them to grow and prosper. It seems like the so-called Christian nations still had to go out and fight and conquer to become a great civilization. And part of that was to force their beliefs on others. So, what I'm questioning here is whether it was the teachings of Jesus that caused this great civilization.

 

[CG Didymus]

Those with an open mind and rational thought will not claim certainty about something that can never be verified. That is logic 101.

It is those who insist they are right about something even when it cannot be verified, and refuse to meet people halfway who are close-minded.

Yet Baha'is complain when people in some of the other religions, as usual the Fundy Christians being one of the main ones, can't have an open mind. When those people say they know for certain, Baha'is believe them to be certainly wrong. But that's the way some religions go. They expect a total and complete commitment. They need their followers to be all-in.

But not everybody is able or willing to do that. And it's a sign of weakness. It shows a lack of faith and trust. But, if investigating the truth and keeping an open mind were important, why would Baha'is stop keeping an open mind and stop investigating to see if their beliefs hold up?

It's something we'd expect from a cult... to just follow and to no longer question. And again, Baha'is expect others, no matter what they believe, to keep an open mind, but them, the Baha'is? No, now that they've found The Truth, they must be steadfast in their belief.

 

[Trailblazer]

Okay, so are you saying that you are open to the possibility that your beliefs are false?

No, that is not what I am saying.