Nothing lasts forever in this life

[Trailblazer]

So no possibility that you could be wrong/your beliefs could be false? I get that you are committed to your beliefs, but can you not see that there is a possibility, however remote, that you could be wrong?

This not about right and wrong, it is about true or false.
Right or wrong is all about ego. I am right and I cannot be wrong.

Sure, it is possible that my beliefs are false. It is also possible that God does not exist and all religions are false. Religions cannot be proven to be true or false. Anything that cannot be proven to be true as a fact is subject to being true or false.

So what is the point of this conversation about right and wrong?

 

[KWED]

Is it possible that Baha'u'llah was not a Messenger of God? Sure that is possible, and it is just as possible that Jesus was a nobody and all of Christianity is one big lie.

Finally!
There, that wasn't so hard, was it.

Although claiming that "Jesus was a nobody" contradicts the evidence. Just as it would be silly to claim that Bahaullah was "a nobody".
But just because a person is "a somebody" doesn't mean that they must have been in contact with a god.
Stalin wasn't "a nobody". Do you believe that makes him divine?

 

[KWED]

That is a straw man because none of this is about right and wrong, it is about what I believe is true.

You have since admitted that you may be wrong about bahaulllah being an actual messenger of an actual god, so there is no need to take this any further.

 

[Trailblazer]

Finally!
There, that wasn't so hard, was it.

Although claiming that "Jesus was a nobody" contradicts the evidence. Just as it would be silly to claim that Bahaullah was "a nobody".
But just because a person is "a somebody" doesn't mean that they must have been in contact with a god.
Stalin wasn't "a nobody". Do you believe that makes him divine?

I never claimed that anyone could prove that God contacted Baha'u'llah.
I only ever said that I believe that God contacted Baha'u'llah.

Believe

1. accept (something) as true; feel sure of the truth of.
"the superintendent believed Lancaster's story"

2. hold (something) as an opinion; think or suppose.
"I believe we've already met"
believe means - Google Search

Many times I have said that can never be proven that God contacted Baha'u'llah since it can never be proven that God even exists.
All we have is the evidence that Baha'u'llah offered to back His claims that He was a Messenger of God.

 

[CG Didymus]

Okay, so are you saying that you are open to the possibility that your beliefs are false?

Are you saying that you are not open to the possibility that your beliefs are false?

So no possibility that you could be wrong/your beliefs could be false? I get that you are committed to your beliefs, but can you not see that there is a possibility, however remote, that you could be wrong?

Same crazy stuff. Of course, Baha'is should believe their religion is 100% true. What that means is that all the other religions are not 100% true.

And finally, an admission that the Baha'i Faith might not be 100% but that is only in theory, since the Baha'i Faith has so many beliefs that can't be proven objectively. But, to the believer, those things are true, because they are taught by the Baha'i Faith as being true. They just can't prove them scientifically. One of those things is God. I really, really don't think they have any doubts whether or not God is true and real.

So, the important points are still, they can't compromise their beliefs to meet us halfway. But they expect others to meet them halfway and keep an open mind that the Baha'i Faith might be true. And, if it is true, then our beliefs, whether Atheistic or from some religion other than the Baha'i Faith, are wrong. And I have no problem with them thinking that. I expect that from them. As I do from several other religious groups. Lots of them think that what they believe is the truth.... until they find out something about their religion they can no longer believe, and they dropout.

 

[KWED]

Many times I have said that can never be proven that God contacted Baha'u'llah since it can never be proven that God even exists.
All we have is the evidence that Baha'u'llah offered to back His claims that He was a Messenger of God.

Claims that may have been made through delusion or dishonesty.

(BTW, he offered no "evidence", merely more claims)

 

[CG Didymus]

Claims that may have been made through delusion or dishonesty.

(BTW, he offered no "evidence", merely more claims)

Two contemporaries of the Baha'is prophet, Joseph Smith and Mīrzā Gulām Ahmad, made similar claims. Do Baha'is really believe Smith spoke with the angel Moroni or made it up or was delusional? Then Mīrzā Gulām Ahmad "claimed to have been divinely appointed as the promised Messiah and Mahdi—which is the metaphorical second-coming of Jesus."

Tell us, Baha'is, what do you believe about these two men? And if you don't believe their claims are true, why not?

 

[Truthseeker]

Which neuroscientists claim that the mind is independent of the physical brain?

No one. I don't claim that either. While we are on this plane of existence the soul and brain work in tandom. I should know. My son is autistic which is a product of his brain. My two brothers had a neurological disorder that ultimtely cut short their earthly life.

However, when this earthly life is over, according to Baha'i, the soul moves on independent of the brain left behind.

Thou hast asked Me whether man, as apart from the Prophets of God and His chosen ones, will retain, after his physical death, the self-same individuality, personality, consciousness, and understanding that characterize his life in this world. If this should be the case, how is it, thou hast observed, that whereas such slight injuries to his mental faculties as fainting and severe illness deprive him of his understanding and consciousness, his death, which must involve the decomposition of his body and the dissolution of its elements, is powerless to destroy that understanding and extinguish that consciousness? How can any one imagine that man's consciousness and personality will be maintained, when the very instruments necessary to their existence and function will have completely disintegrated?

Know thou that the soul of man is exalted above, and is independent of all infirmities of body or mind. That a sick person showeth signs of weakness is due to the hindrances that interpose themselves between his soul and his body, for the soul itself remaineth unaffected by any bodily ailments. Consider the light of the lamp. Though an external object may interfere with its radiance, the light itself continueth to shine with undiminished power. In like manner, every malady afflicting the body of man is an impediment that preventeth the soul from manifesting its inherent might and power. When it leaveth the body, however, it will evince such ascendancy, and reveal such influence as no force on earth can equal. Every pure, every refined and sanctified soul will be endowed with tremendous power, and shall rejoice with exceeding gladness.
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 153)

"It is very hard to be subject to any illness, particularly a mental one. However, we must always remember these illnesses have nothing to do with our spirit or our inner relation to God. It is a great pity that as yet so little is really known of the mind, its workings and the illnesses that afflict it; no doubt, as the world becomes more spiritually minded and scientists understand the true nature of man, more humane and permanent cures for mental diseases will be found. "The Guardian, much as his heart goes out to you in your fear and suffering, Cannot tell you whether electric shock treatments should or should not be used, as this is a purely medical question, and there is no reference to such details in our Scriptures. The best scientists must pass upon such methods, not laymen. "You must always remember, no matter how much you or your others may be afflicted with mental troubles and the crushing environment of these State Institutions, that your spirit is healthy, near to our Beloved, and will in the next world enjoy a happy and normal state of soul. Let us hope in the meantime scientists will find better and permanent cures for the mentally afflicted. But in this world such illness is truly a heavy burden to bear!"
(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, April 12, 1948: Selections from Bahá'í Writings on Some Aspects of Health and Healing, a compilation of the Universal House of Justice, June 1974)
(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 281)

 

[Truthseeker]

I, unlike Tb, am open to the possibility that I may be wrong.
What about you? Are you open to the possibility that you may be wrong?.

After 52 years of having fits of doubt I have certitude, but only after I have done reams and reams of thought and investigation.

 

[Trailblazer]

Two contemporaries of the Baha'is prophet, Joseph Smith and Mīrzā Gulām Ahmad, made similar claims. Do Baha'is really believe Smith spoke with the angel Moroni or made it up or was delusional? Then Mīrzā Gulām Ahmad "claimed to have been divinely appointed as the promised Messiah and Mahdi—which is the metaphorical second-coming of Jesus."

Tell us, Baha'is, what do you believe about these two men? And if you don't believe their claims are true, why not?

Joseph Smith did not claim to be the return of Christ or the Messiah, as did Baha'u'llah. He claimed to be a prophet who was called to restore Christianity. Baha’is believe he was a seer, not an actual prophet sent by God.

What did Joseph Smith claim to be?

Smith believed that God was calling him to become the prophet who would banish false teaching and restore the church to its true foundations. This epiphany marked the beginning of a faith tradition called the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or Mormonism.
God In America: People: Joseph Smith | PBS

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad claimed to be the promised Messiah and the Mahdi and the return of Christ. Baha’is consider him to be a false prophet. He was either deluded or a liar. There is absolutely no evidence that would indicate that he was who he claimed to be and he fulfilled no biblical prophecies by his coming.

Mirzā[a] Ghulām Ahmad (13 February 1835 – 26 May 1908) was an Indian religious leader and the founder of the Ahmadiyya movement in Islam. He claimed to have been divinely appointed as the promised Messiah and Mahdi—which is the metaphorical second-coming of Jesus (mathīl-iʿIsā),[5][6] in fulfillment of Islam's latter day prophecies, as well as the Mujaddid (centennial reviver) of the 14th Islamic century.[7][8][9]
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad - Wikipedia

 

[Trailblazer]

After 52 years of having fits of doubt I have certitude, but only after I have done reams and reams of thought and investigation.

Same here, certitude after 52 years of thought and investigation, but only that one fit of doubt.

 

[KWED]

No one. I don't claim that either. While we are on this plane of existence the soul and brain work in tandom.

Ok. So which neuroscientists claim that the brain and the soul work in tandem?

I should know. My son is autistic which is a product of his brain. My two brothers had a neurological disorder that ultimtely cut short their earthly life.

However, when this earthly life is over, according to Baha'i, the soul moves on independent of the brain left behind.

How does your experience of people with neurological disorders show that the brain and soul work in tandem, or that there even is a "soul" that is capably of existing independently of the brain.

Thou hast asked Me whether man, as apart from the Prophets of God and His chosen ones, will retain, after his physical death, the self-same individuality, personality, consciousness, and understanding that characterize his life in this world. If this should be the case, how is it, thou hast observed, that whereas such slight injuries to his mental faculties as fainting and severe illness deprive him of his understanding and consciousness, his death, which must involve the decomposition of his body and the dissolution of its elements, is powerless to destroy that understanding and extinguish that consciousness? How can any one imagine that man's consciousness and personality will be maintained, when the very instruments necessary to their existence and function will have completely disintegrated?

Know thou that the soul of man is exalted above, and is independent of all infirmities of body or mind. That a sick person showeth signs of weakness is due to the hindrances that interpose themselves between his soul and his body, for the soul itself remaineth unaffected by any bodily ailments. Consider the light of the lamp. Though an external object may interfere with its radiance, the light itself continueth to shine with undiminished power. In like manner, every malady afflicting the body of man is an impediment that preventeth the soul from manifesting its inherent might and power. When it leaveth the body, however, it will evince such ascendancy, and reveal such influence as no force on earth can equal. Every pure, every refined and sanctified soul will be endowed with tremendous power, and shall rejoice with exceeding gladness.
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 153)

"It is very hard to be subject to any illness, particularly a mental one. However, we must always remember these illnesses have nothing to do with our spirit or our inner relation to God. It is a great pity that as yet so little is really known of the mind, its workings and the illnesses that afflict it; no doubt, as the world becomes more spiritually minded and scientists understand the true nature of man, more humane and permanent cures for mental diseases will be found. "The Guardian, much as his heart goes out to you in your fear and suffering, Cannot tell you whether electric shock treatments should or should not be used, as this is a purely medical question, and there is no reference to such details in our Scriptures. The best scientists must pass upon such methods, not laymen. "You must always remember, no matter how much you or your others may be afflicted with mental troubles and the crushing environment of these State Institutions, that your spirit is healthy, near to our Beloved, and will in the next world enjoy a happy and normal state of soul. Let us hope in the meantime scientists will find better and permanent cures for the mentally afflicted. But in this world such illness is truly a heavy burden to bear!"
(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, April 12, 1948: Selections from Bahá'í Writings on Some Aspects of Health and Healing, a compilation of the Universal House of Justice, June 1974)
(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 281)

This is all mere assertion. There is no scientific evidence to support these claims.

 

[KWED]

After 52 years of having fits of doubt I have certitude, but only after I have done reams and reams of thought and investigation.

So, what evidence and argument shows, with 100% certainty, that Bahaullah was not delusional or dishonest?
Or is it just your opinion?

 

[Trailblazer]

There is no scientific evidence to support these claims.

No, of course not. These are religious beliefs, not scientific facts.

 

[KWED]

Joseph Smith did not claim to be the return of Christ or the Messiah, as did Baha'u'llah. He claimed to be a prophet who was called to restore Christianity. Baha’is believe he was a seer, not an actual prophet sent by God.

So you believe that other people making such claims were dishonest or delusional, but Bahaullah cannot have been.
Conversely, the followers of those people make the same claim about their special one, with the same certainty.
Hmm...

 

[KWED]

Same here, certitude after 52 years of thought and investigation, but only that one fit of doubt.

Interesting that scientists with actual, verifiable, solid evidence don't claim 100% certainty - yet you do based on nothing but claims and opinions.

 

[KWED]

No, of course not. These are religious beliefs, not scientific facts.

So how can you even claim it is probable, never mind 100% certain?

 

[muhammad_isa]

How does your experience of people with neurological disorders show that the brain and soul work in tandem, or that there even is a "soul" that is capably of existing independently of the brain.

There are psychiatrists and psychologists.
One prescribes physical medicines [for neurological disorders], and the other employs psychological therapies [ therapy of the mind/soul ]

If there were not two concepts, there would not be any need to distinguish between them.

 

[Sheldon]

No, in heaven we will have a spiritual body that our soul will be downloaded onto.

I thought you didn't know anything about heaven? Come to that how are you laughably claiming to know this anyway?

 

[Sheldon]

No, no one has ever been able to confirm that...
Confirmation comes only when one dies and realizes they are not dead.

Did you die already? Then you are simply making sh** up.