Nothing lasts forever in this life

[KWED]

The certainty comes from God.

This is the god that you admit you aren't even certain exists?

 

[Spirit of Light]

You really do seem to have trouble grasping the concept of religious debate.
No one is "stomping" or "trying to destroy" people (loving the irrational appeal to emotion though). I am simply asking questions about people's beliefs. If you find those questions difficult to answer, that's the problem of the belief, not the person asking the questions.

See above.

Seriously, if having your beliefs challenged results in a personal crisis, then perhaps you need to reassess your beliefs rather than attack the person doing the challenging?

So basically, you are saying that as long as someone really believes in something, then we should let them get on with it and not challenge those beliefs?

Who are you to change my personal belief?

 

[Goldemar]

This not about right and wrong, it is about true or false.
Right or wrong is all about ego. I am right and I cannot be wrong.

Sure, it is possible that my beliefs are false. It is also possible that God does not exist and all religions are false. Religions cannot be proven to be true or false. Anything that cannot be proven to be true as a fact is subject to being true or false.

So what is the point of this conversation about right and wrong?

It is about what you believe to be true, sure, but also about whether you could be wrong in believing that, or more importantly being open to that possibility. An alternative way of putting it might be being open to the possibility that you could have been misled in your thinking that x. I am certainly open to the possibility that I could be wrong or could have been misled in my thinking.

 

[CG Didymus]

So, what evidence and argument shows, with 100% certainty, that Bahaullah was not delusional or dishonest?
Or is it just your opinion?

We're only at the beginning of our journey to certitude. In another 50 years, we too may see the light. If only they could shed more light on what it was that made them so darn sure. Oh wait, it is because it has to be true. Afterall, his mission, his character and because he said so.

 

[CG Didymus]

So you believe that other people making such claims were dishonest or delusional, but Bahaullah cannot have been.
Conversely, the followers of those people make the same claim about their special one, with the same certainty.
Hmm...

She didn't say anything about Joseph Smith's claim to have spoken to an angel. Then, supposedly, the angel told him where to find the Golden Plates that had the Book of Mormon written on them. But it was in a strange language, so the angel gave him special stones that allowed him to read the plates.

To translate, Smith said the angel Moroni gave him two transparent translation stones, Urim and Tummim, which he could use as magic glasses to read the plates. At first, Smith went through a series of scribes, who wrote down his words while he hid with the plates behind a blanket or curtain.​

And just what is in this Book of Mormon? What's it all about?

(T)he Book of Mormon's internal chronology takes place prior to the birth of Jesus, prophets in the book frequently see him in vision and preach about him, and the people in the book worship Jesus as "pre-Christian Christians."

In the Book of Mormon, Jesus visits some early inhabitants of the Americas after his resurrection, and this event is often described as the climax of the book.
​

She says, "Baha’is believe he was a seer, not an actual prophet sent by God." Really? Baha'is believe that huh? He was not delusional? He wasn't a fraud and just making all this up? Does that mean it is true that the Angel Moroni visited him and told him about the Golden Plates? And he used the special stones to translate the Plates into the Book of Mormon? And in the Book of Mormon, it says that the resurrected Jesus visited the people in the Americas?

I can see why Mormons believe that. It is their religion. But why would Baha'is believe that all that is true? And I get the feeling they don't. Or... Do Baha'i have to believe it, because that is what the Baha'i writings teach... That Joseph Smith was a seer.

 

[samtonga43]

He will never damage my faith. Given I have been to hell and back and I still have my faith, do you really think any atheist can ever damage my faith?

No, you have not been to hell, Tb. God IS. You have been nowhere where God IS NOT. I hope you never will be.

 

[CG Didymus]

So you believe that other people making such claims were dishonest or delusional, but Bahaullah cannot have been.
Conversely, the followers of those people make the same claim about their special one, with the same certainty.
Hmm...

Here's some stuff about the Ahmadiyya...

The claims of Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad to be Messiah and Mahdi were of an entirely different, and indeed opposite, nature from the Bahai claims.

Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad said that the Holy Prophet Muhammad had brought the final, everlasting religion, law and scripture. So any truthful claimant sent by God could ONLY appear within the Islamic religion. And the work of any such claimant could ONLY be the defence and propagation of Islam (as taught in the Quran and by the Prophet Muhammad). Therefore Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is a Messiah and Mahdi within Islam carrying forward the mission of the Prophet Muhammad, and being entirely subject to the authority of the Quran and Prophet Muhammad like any other Muslim.

One of Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad's basic aims was to teach the world the Islamic doctrine of the absolute oneness of God, which strongly rejects the concept that any human being can ever be a manifestation of God. The Bahai teachings are that there have been various manifestations of God on earth (Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, Baha-ullah). Therefore Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was teaching the opposite of the Bahai beliefs.

As noted above, Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad proclaimed that the Islamic scripture, teachings and law are valid forever, and will never be abrogated or replaced. Again this is exactly the opposite of Bahai beliefs which teach that Baha-ullah's scripture and law have abrogated and replaced the Holy Quran and the Shari'ah of Islam.
​

So, to the Baha'is, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is a fraud. But to the Ahmadiyya, Baha'u'llah is the fraud. And I'm almost 100% certain that each side is certain that their guy is telling the truth. Or... it all a bunch of claims of religious people that can't be proven either way. Yet... they are certain? Of course, they are, because they've chosen to believe it. Because it sounds true. It feels true. They've investigated and proven it to themselves that it's true. Even though, their unprovable truth contradicts someone else's unprovable truth.

​

 

[CG Didymus]

Interesting that scientists with actual, verifiable, solid evidence don't claim 100% certainty - yet you do based on nothing but claims and opinions.

Yeah, that's what so strange about some religions. They require a total commitment to believing everything the religion claims to be true. And each one of those religions finds reasons to "prove" that the other religions aren't true. And yes, Baha'is even you. Because you say, "They were all true, but..." And then tell us why those other religions are no longer true.

 

[CG Didymus]

So basically, you are saying that as long as someone really believes in something, then we should let them get on with it and not challenge those beliefs?

As if Baha'is don't "challenge" the beliefs of other people. They tell Hindus that their belief in reincarnation isn't true. And to Christians, they tell them that Jesus is not God and that he didn't come back to life, and he isn't ever coming back.

If I were a Christian, I'd be feeling pretty awful about hearing all that. So, why would a Baha'i do that? Why not just leave the poor Christian alone? Because they believe that those Christian beliefs aren't true, and it is their duty to tell the Christian the real truth.

 

[Trailblazer]

So you are just making senseless claims up then, like here?

No, I just have beliefs, I am not claiming anything.
Whether you think they are senseless or not is another matter altogether.

 

[Trailblazer]

This is the god that you admit you aren't even certain exists?

I am certain that God exists.

 

[ppp]

Who are you to change my personal belief?

One does not have to be someone special to change anyone's personal (as opposed to impersonal?) belief. Affecting the thoughts and beliefs of others is just a feature of existing

 

[Trailblazer]

It is about what you believe to be true, sure, but also about whether you could be wrong in believing that, or more importantly being open to that possibility. An alternative way of putting it might be being open to the possibility that you could have been misled in your thinking that x. I am certainly open to the possibility that I could be wrong or could have been misled in my thinking.

I do not like to think in terms of right and wrong, because I consider that egotistical:
"I was right and you were wrong."

Sure it is possible that my beliefs are not true. Anything is possible unless it has been proven impossible.

If my beliefs are not true, it is not because I was misled by anyone, because nobody ever told me what to believe. I investigated for myself so if my beliefs are not true it would be because I misconstrued the evidence, believing it was evidence for something it was not really evidence for.

 

[Trailblazer]

If only they could shed more light on what it was that made them so darn sure.

I have been doing that for almost five years on this forum, but that is not going to help anyone else because we all have to be sure for our own reasons.

 

[Trailblazer]

No, you have not been to hell, Tb. God IS. You have been nowhere where God IS NOT. I hope you never will be.

What you said is true, but when I said I have been to hell and back that was just a figure of speech.

 

[Trailblazer]

As if Baha'is don't "challenge" the beliefs of other people. They tell Hindus that their belief in reincarnation isn't true. And to Christians, they tell them that Jesus is not God and that he didn't come back to life, and he isn't ever coming back.

No, that is not what Baha'is do.

We do not tell other people that their beliefs are not true. What we do is say what we do not believe.

We tell Hindus we do not believe in reincarnation and we tell Christians we do not believe that Jesus is God, and we do not believe Jesus came back to live and we do not believe that Jesus is ever coming back.

Truth is the foundation of all virtues and lying is a sin so we are not going to lie and tell people we believe what we do not believe.

 

[Goldemar]

I do not like to think in terms of right and wrong, because I consider that egotistical:
"I was right and you were wrong."

Sure it is possible that my beliefs are not true. Anything is possible unless it has been proven impossible.

If my beliefs are not true, it is not because I was misled by anyone, because nobody ever told me what to believe. I investigated for myself so if my beliefs are not true it would be because I misconstrued the evidence, believing it was evidence for something it was not really evidence for.

All I am asking is whether you are open to the possibility that your beliefs are not true, then, if that is the language you prefer. I am not saying they are not true, because I accept that they could be. But by the same token, they might not be, right?

 

[muhammad_isa]

I am certain that God exists.

..so am I.

 

[Trailblazer]

All I am asking is whether you are open to the possibility that your beliefs are not true, then, if that is the language you prefer. I am not saying they are not true, because I accept that they could be. But by the same token, they might not be, right?

I think I answered that already.
I said: Sure it is possible that my beliefs are not true. Anything is possible unless it has been proven impossible.

I think a more useful question is: How can we ever know if our beliefs are true?
Another useful question is: What if my beliefs are true, what are the implications of that?

 

[CG Didymus]

..so am I.

God is such a general term. It's too easy to say, "I believe in God", but the person is believing in very different things about God. So, tell me about this God that you believe in... Did that God send a new messenger, a manifestation called Baha'u'llah, to teach us new things that will bring peace and unity to the world?

And it is rather important, because the implication is that if people deny God's messenger, they are denying God himself. But, if God did not send this messenger, then who did? Are there prophecies in Islam of false prophets and messengers that do not represent the real God. If so, does this prophet of the Baha'is fit any of those descriptions? Or we can compare him to what the true messenger was supposed to be like. Does the Baha'i prophet fit what Muslims expected?