Now Belgium bans burqa in public places

[.lava]

I am simply describing what I see.
period.

Sorry if my perception of "bag" offends you.
(if I had intended to offend,
I could have done much better than "bag")

To live in a western society,
you'll have to be less sensitive to the perceptions of westerners.

For me... words/labels/names of things hold no specific sacred value.

I call it like I see it.

That's another thing about our culture.
We generally do not hold things sacred.
Do not expect to be treated "special"
or as some "exception"
in this regard.

:biglaugh:

.

 

[blackout]

:biglaugh:

.

I'm glad you understand.
:hug:

I truly do love individuals.
Especially women, it's true.
They have a deep and special place in my heart.

My words may appear "insulting" from the WRONG perspective.
In truth, they come from a place of deep love.

 

[Badran]

And what of bi-sexual women like mySelf?
What if her dentist is a lesbian or a bisexual?
and she does not know it?
She may become a source of temptaion to the dentist.
(we ARE allowed to express our sexuality in the western world you know)

Now you're just trying to make up excuses that supposedly would "limit" them, she can find a straight female dentist. There is plenty of those.

Yes those are WESTERN standards.
and I'm quite sure I do not stand alone in them

What are western standards? That you must see your doctor's teeth before he/she examines you? Well, there are other ways to find out wether or not a dentist is good, assuming that the fact that his/her teeth are good, actually count as an indication that she is a good dentist.

Fruit bowls maybe.
And scenes that do not define human form and (facial) expression.
Sounds fun.
*yawns*
That certainly leaves out fine arts.
But still life oil paintings are always a nice hobby I guess.
(when there is nothing else)

First off, assuming that this is the case, just because you think this is boring doesn't make it so. Second, of course they are not limited to draw anything that any other muslim woman are not limited to.

wow.
I am TOTALLY serious.
HOW THE HELL CAN YOU SEE PROPERLY WITH A BAG OVER YOUR HEAD.

I personally would be VERY upset to find that it was legal
for people to drive on MY STREETS with bags on their heads.
I would fight it. I hope other sane people would as well.

Well, like i said they do drive, and i haven't heard of any complaints. Especially because non of them wears bags on their heads.

whatever.
I'm glad there are competent lifeguards out there for my kids.
When yours is drowning,
don't complain when a woman in swimgear saves his life.

That could not possibly be any less relevant to what i'm saying. What does competent life guards have to do with this? and who complained about women in swimgear? Apparently you have other things in mind while having this discussion. Let me make something clear, any woman should be allowed to wear anything she wants, Is that clear? Wether niqab or a bikini. Any kind of law that limits them in this aspect, is disgusting. I hope this clears any misconceptions.

Also, its worth mentioning that i actually find niqab and burqa to be unnecessary, and i don't think women should wear them. However, that doesn't mean we should force anything on anyone.

 

[blackout]

whatever.

if a woman CHOOSES to live in a prison,
that is her own "bag".
(expression)


far be it for me to get in her way.

 

[Badran]

whatever.

if women CHOOSE to live in a prison,
that is their own "bag".

far be it for me to get in her way.

Okay.

I don't know why are you approaching this issue like this though. Most of your posts indicates a live and let live attitude, so i don't know if i'm missing your point.

If your point is, that you're merely voicing your disapproval (not as in banning, but as in you view it as something unnecessarily limiting to women), i would agree. I don't think women should cover their faces, but i don't also think its such a horrible thing.

 

[blackout]

They should not be driving with something over their head.

You need TOTAL side visibility...
peripheral vision
to safely/competantly back up, and make lane changes and such.
Natural blind spots are bad enough.
What morons would allow people to drive without full visibility?
Maybe I'll stop wearing my glasses while driving then.

In general though,
I'm arguing that it's absurd to expect integration into western society.
It leaves your women limited and emaciated in our world.

I also do not want anyone trying to make MY WORLD, your world
or your world, my world.

Much better to keep them seperate.

Water and Oil do not mix.

 

[doppelganger]

Most modern westerners are conditioned to find abuse or oppressive treatment of women as disgusting. The women themselves will, of course, within the cultural context in which they are being abused, generally have no problem with it - largely because it's all they know and they have been conditioned with heavy feelings of guilt and shame as well as threat of physical violence and even death to submit to it.

One can have a "live and let live" attitude and not seek to force people to change their beliefs or practices, yet still express disgust at the idea of men being so afraid of their own sexuality that they need to put women in bags, or clip off parts of a woman's genitals.

And yes, it's their prerogative and it makes sense within the psychologically fractured world in which they operate. But I would be lying if I didn't say I find it all revolting and vile.

 

[Panda]

That could not possibly be any less relevant to what i'm saying. What does competent life guards have to do with this? and who complained about women in swimgear? Apparently you have other things in mind while having this discussion. Let me make something clear, any woman should be allowed to wear anything she wants, Is that clear? Wether niqab or a bikini. Any kind of law that limits them in this aspect, is disgusting. I hope this clears any misconceptions.

What if the woman chose to wear nothing at all?

 

[Badran]

They should not be driving with something over their head.

You need TOTAL side visibility...
peripheral vision
to safely/competantly back up, and make lane changes and such.
Natural blind spots are bad enough.
What morons would allow people to drive without full visibility?
Maybe I'll stop wearing my glasses while driving then.

In general though,
I'm arguing that it's absurd to expect integration into western society.
It leaves your women limited and emaciated in our world.

I also do not want anyone trying to make MY WORLD, your world
or your world, my world.

Much better to keep them seperate.

Water and Oil do not mix.

I don't want to influence your life, nor do i want you influence mine neither, just like you. That however, doesn't mean we should be completely separate, we are not oil and water. Just because we have different values doesn't make things all that drastic. Because we do share some, its not all differences. You can voice of course as much as you like your disapproval of something, but that is not the same as trying to enforce something on someone.

 

[Badran]

Most modern westerners are conditioned to find abuse or oppressive treatment of women as disgusting. The women themselves will, of course, within the cultural context in which they are being abused, generally have no problem with it - largely because it's all they know and they have been conditioned with heavy feelings of guilt and shame as well as threat of physical violence and even death to submit to it.

One can have a "live and let live" attitude and not seek to force people to change their beliefs or practices, yet still express disgust at the idea of men being so afraid of their own sexuality that they need to put women in bags, or clip off parts of a woman's genitals.

And yes, it's their prerogative and it makes sense within the psychologically fractured world in which they operate. But I would be lying if I didn't say I find it all revolting and vile.

I think the problem with your perception, is that you are looking at this from the worst examples. Its not this simple.

Of course you can express your opinion on anything, that is a side issue, and i'm sure there are plenty of muslims here who can give you a handful of things they view as disgusting in the modern western values.

However, the point is, not all women wearing this are forced to do so, or even encouraged to do so. There are different conditions in each country. In some countries, such as afghanistan for example, i'm sure there is plenty of those bad examples where women are forced into accepting this as a model for being good, and probably some of them are indeed threatened to do so. On the other hand, there are many women who do so completely out of their own desire, without any influence from any body else.

And by the way clipping of parts of women genitals is not the same as this.

 

[Badran]

What if the woman chose to wear nothing at all?

Being naked is pretty much the same for women and men alike. Either allowed for both, or denied for both.

 

[.lava]

I'm glad you understand.
:hug:

I truly do love individuals.
Especially women, it's true.
They have a deep and special place in my heart.

My words may appear "insulting" from the WRONG perspective.
In truth, they come from a place of deep love.

well, i think people could not grow wings even if they say "i am groving wings" for billion times; though some still jump off high grounds expecting to fly and crash. tragic comic indeed; i laugh at them once but always pity them twice

.

 

[.lava]

Being naked is pretty much the same for women and men alike. Either allowed for both, or denied for both.

:clap absolutely

.

 

[doppelganger]

I think the problem with your perception, is that you are looking at this from the worst examples. Its not this simple.

It's not simple at all. Those things I mentioned are tied up together with an attitude of disrespect for women that has lesser and greater expressions in practice based on the time and locale. And there are corollary attitudes in United States toward women, though not nearly as pronounced as they used to be or as they are in conservative Islamic cultures.

However, the point is, not all women wearing this are forced to do so, or even encouraged to do so.

The former is true. The latter is highly doubtful. You could say the same things about women who subject their daughters to genital mutilation or in other cultural circumstances, the practice of foot-binding, for example. The culture itself (and to be clear, not just Islam) can be so soaked with fear and disrespect for women, that women tell themselves that they want to be mutilated for their own good - they are conditioned to treat the mistreatment as an aspect of how they are valued by their culture.

 

[Caladan]

Though really the lesson Europe learned from their centuries of wars of religion was the need for religious tolerance and the clear separation of religious authority and "secular" governmental authority where cultures have mixed. This law is contrary to religious tolerance.

From their own lessons, it's fair for Europeans to adamantly oppose any aspect of religious law being enacted as part of their government for religious rather than policy reasons. But that which goes on between consenting adults is noboby's business but their own unless one wants to reopen the violence that religious tolerance is meant to diffuse.

That's where I think you miss the point Europeans are concerned about. the Burqa and full veil signifies an era and an atmosphere that Europe has matured out of, many, or rather the vast majority of Europeans view the veil as a misogynistic article of clothing which goes against their social standards.

 

[.lava]

That's where I think you miss the point Europeans are concerned about. the Burqa and full veil signifies an era and an atmosphere that Europe has matured out of, many, or rather the vast majority of Europeans view the veil as a misogynistic article of clothing which goes against their social standards.

that does not make sense at all. since when one of the basics of human expectation as a social creature have become "European" or "Western" or whatever.. covering your face has never been normal or acceptable in any era. it could not be because even people who lived 1000 or 2000 years ago would be just like any human who expect to see face of another human being. simply because it is ID of that person. it hides ID of the person, male or female, makes no difference

.

 

[Badran]

It's not simple at all. Those things I mentioned are tied up together with an attitude of disrespect for women that has lesser and greater expressions in practice based on the time and locale. And there are corollary attitudes in United States toward women, though not nearly as pronounced as they used to be or as they are in conservative Islamic cultures.

Of course there is attitudes that are much prevalent today, towards women. Which conveys itself on various levels depending on the place. Like you said for example in the US, it wouldn't be at all the same as Saudi Arabia for example. And not all people in each of those places, react to that in the same way.

The former is true. The latter is highly doubtful. You could say the same things about women who subject their daughters to genital mutilation or in other cultural circumstances, the practice of foot-binding, for example. The culture itself (and to be clear, not just Islam) can be so soaked with fear and disrespect for women, that women tell themselves that they want to be mutilated for their own good - they are conditioned to treat the mistreatment as an aspect of how they are valued by their culture.

This is very much true. Like any culture though, not all people are affected this way. I don't know if in your personal life you have encountered or not any woman who wears niqab or burqa, but through the examples i know, i could say that while your perception does indeed exist, but it doesn't work that way for all or most women, at least in the countries in which this attitude is not as strong. And by that i don't mean the United States, i mean countries even in the middle.

Lots of women quite simply look at this as an extra effort, that they would like to do, because they believe it brings them closer to God. So, if we want to speak up against this, as in we do want to tell those women that they don't need to cover their faces, its not wise to approach it through the liberation attitude. Because a lot of them were not forced into this, so you would come off quite offensive, and will probably not reach any outcome. And most certainly, what is also not a positive approach, is to impose laws on them.

 

[Caladan]

that does not make sense at all. since when one of the basics of human expectation as a social creature have become "European"

In Europe they are 'Europeans', just like many Islamic areas would expect you to dress modestly and in a non revealing way in order to respect THEIR social standards.

covering your face has never been normal or acceptable in any era. it could not be because even people who lived 1000 or 2000 years ago would be just like any human who expect to see face of another human being. simply because it is ID of that person. it hides ID of the person, male or female, makes no difference

It would be interesting to post an academic paper of research about the veil in older societies.

 

[.lava]

In Europe they are 'Europeans', just like many Islamic areas would expect you to dress modestly and in a non revealing way in order to respect THEIR social standards.

solve the puzzle then. i am a Muslim and i think face cover in a society is irritating, unacceptable and inhumane. what am i? a European?

It would be interesting to post an academic paper of research about the veil in older societies.

do it if you like but you can't change my mind. if today women are wearing face cover in public, that's because they fear not to. in a soceity where women were oppressed and scared by men, i would probably wear whatever they wear to protect myself from being raped or physically attacked considering not covering your face would be taken by some men as an invitation. that's how i see why almost every women wear it in certain societies. though there are women who chose to wear it. i only saw one woman in my whole life. but that's not the issue if we're talking about societies where every women wear it. when something is done out of fear, we can't say it is acceptable, can we? IMO it is not even a norm

.

 

[Caladan]

[/font]

solve the puzzle then. i am a Muslim and i think face cover in a society is irritating, unacceptable and inhumane. what am i? a European?

I think that to find the idea of covering the face as inhumane is logical, and a person doesn't have to be European to realize that.

do it if you like but you can't change my mind. if today women are wearing face cover in public, that's because they fear not to. in a soceity where women were oppressed and scared by men, i would probably wear whatever they wear to protect myself from being raped or physically attacked considering not covering your face would be taken by some men as an invitation. that's how i see why almost every women wear it in certain societies. though there are women who chose to wear it. i only saw one woman in my whole life. but that's not the issue if we're talking about societies where every women wear it. when something is done out of fear, we can't say it is acceptable, can we? IMO it is not even a norm

Obviously, in some societies it may pose a greater threat to women to rebel against it, for example in Afghanistan during the Taliban regime perhaps.
on the other hand, Europe is a liberal and secular place.