Now Belgium bans burqa in public places

[Alceste]

Patriarchy. Blech.

I see your blech and raise you an ugh.

 

[Panda]

Not in a patriarchy, we're not. Restrict the liberties of men? Unacceptable! Men are abusing their liberties at the expense of women? Abridge the liberties of women!

I don't think this is an issue of Men trying to oppress women but Westerners trying to oppress Islam.

 

[beenie]

Then what complain after that?
If you're married and your husband tells you to do X thing, and you really really hate it, you'll have two options :

1) Either divorce
2) Or you love your husband and do that thing only to please him and stay with him

Now Im presuming that you hate it, what about if you like it and everyone thinks you're doing it because your husband want you to do it?

And still you didnt answer wether all your thoughts posted are only presumptions or did you really ever talked to one of these ladies to see wether they are forced or not?

Best regards

i can't see wearing a complete burqa as a sacrifice women would readily make to keep their husbands happy, especially since it's not a requirement in Islam. many women would do so because men who force this will either a) become physically abusive, or b) divorce her and leave her with their children. not much choice left anymore.

Then make it illegal to compel a woman to dress contrary to her own preference. Many Islamic women decide for themselves, btw. It's a common misapprehension that they're all under duress, except in states where the government makes their decision for them. Like Belgium.

excellent point. why is everyone so damned obsessed with how women dress anyway? i don't think God asked for human help.

and yes, many women choose to wear the burqa.

Precisely.

Are we going to see bans that target men?

never going to happen

There are certainly more than two clear cut options, Fatima. In theory, a disgruntled wife could simply talk to her husband and try to reason with him that she just isn't in to the burka thingy. If he is wise and IF he loves her, he would naturally be sensitive to her wishes.

Realistically, I cannot imagine why any woman would want to cover herself from head to toe. I know, I've heard the reasoning, but quite honestly, none of it actually make much sense. Curiously, I don't know why Muslims don't tell them they are misunderstanding the exhortation to dress modestly. Modesty is one thing, to cover all is quite another. It is - a tad extreme.

agreed. again, God did NOT ask for humans to help.

A ban on men wearing speedos would be a good place to start.

please do.

Or how about the husband stops telling his wife what to wear? You know, it really IS okay to refuse to give husbands that much say-so.

precisely; my husband knows better, and others should too. whose scale do we go by in terms of modesty? in short, God's. why are men forcing women to wear something God didn't insist upon?

Of course, thats their own business how they would deal with the issue. What I meant was the case where the husband is forcing her, either physically or emotionally, then theres always an escape.

Realistically, I cannot imagine why any woman would want to cover herself from head to toe. I know, I've heard the reasoning, but quite honestly, none of it actually make much sense. Curiously, I don't know why Muslims don't tell them they are misunderstanding the exhortation to dress modestly. Modesty is one thing, to cover all is quite another. It is - a tad extreme.

agreed.

Not imagining it or understanding it doesnt make it impossible. This week, at a Quran revision class, two ladies declared that they decided to put Niqab; everyone was happy for them and they were encouraged. Does it make any sense to you? It may not do so, but its still happening every day on this earth.

Oh and btw, it may be more hard to understand because you're a men and dont have women feelings . Im just saying, not sure though [/QUOTE]

i won't encourage or discourage any women who makes the choice of her own free will. i don't agree with burqa wearing, but who the heck am i?

No problem at all, she can says and do what she wants. I was adressing the situation were the husband is a bearded terrorist who FORCES his wife to wear a bag from head to toe and slap her when theres a finger that shows up. ( Okey , Im just trying to draw a caricature for the ban law)

lol

How about making it illegal to abuse your wife?

I don't make excuses.

that would make TOO much sense, i'm afraid.

I'm against the burqa ban, btw. I think any dress code enforced on women in any culture as a scapegoat for the crimes of men is a bad idea. I'm with you on maintaining freedom for women.

i'm against the burqa too, and i agree that i'm also against any man or government telling women what they can and can't wear.

And I don't understand why a woman would want breast enlargement surgery, speaking of "extreme". Should we make that illegal too?

that will be next.

Patriarchy. Blech.

blech x 2

I don't think this is an issue of Men trying to oppress women but Westerners trying to oppress Islam.

agreed 100%

 

[Alceste]

I don't think this is an issue of Men trying to oppress women but Westerners trying to oppress Islam.

I think it's more complex than that. Why, when the problem is purported to be the female-oppressing symbolism of facial coverings, is passing a law restricting the freedoms of women the first thing that jumps to mind of our legislators? You don't think it might be at least partly because they're not women? You don't think a mainly female group of legislators might have preferred a law prohibiting domestic coercion?

 

[beenie]

I think it's more complex than that. Why, when the problem is purported to be the female-oppressing symbolism of facial coverings, is passing a law restricting the freedoms of women the first thing that jumps to mind of our legislators? You don't think it might be at least partly because they're not women? You don't think a mainly female group of legislators might have preferred a law prohibiting domestic coercion?

most definitely an excellent point as well.

 

[nameless]

They breath just fine nameless, they didn't complain. Once again this kind of arguments are no way near any kind of grounds to dictate to women what to wear.

How did you know? Presumption? Or have you actually talked to one of them?

I suggest you ask a Muslim female member on the forums called Fullyveiled Muslimah as a first step. I know hundreds of them, but they speak arabic so it wont help.



Why do you think they manifested against that law? Shouldnt they be happy and thankful?

Well like you clarified the psychological state might have a role. Also the women who willingly wear it, don't complain. Or are okay with it if they do complain and i'm not aware. So it would come down once again to this being their choice.

Quoting here tasleema nasreen's reaction on wearing burqa.

let's burn the burqa : tasleema nasreen

My mother used purdah. She wore a burqa with a net cover in front of the face. It reminded me of the meatsafes in my grandmother's house. One had a net door made of cloth, the other of metal. But the objective was the same: keeping the meat safe. My mother was put under a burqa by her conservative family. They told her that wearing a burqa would mean obeying Allah. And if you obey Allah, He would be happy with you and not let you burn in hellfire. My mother was afraid of Allah and also of her own father. He would threaten her with grave consequences if she didn't wear the burqa. She was also afraid of the men in the neighbourhood, who could have shamed her. Even her husband was a source of fear, for he could do anything to her if she disobeyed him.

As a young girl, I used to nag her: Ma, don't you suffocate in this veil? Don't you feel all dark inside? Don't you feel breathless? Don't you feel angry? Don't you ever feel like throwing it off? My mother kept mum. She couldn't do anything about it. But I did. When I was sixteen, I was presented a burqa by one of my relatives. I threw it away.

tasleema nasreen

unfortunately not every muslim women should be courageous like taslima. Basic human rights is to be preserved at any cost, banning burqa is not wrong in such context.

 

[nameless]

Both are the same as far as i'm concerned. Nobody has a right to dictate to others what to wear, whatever their reasons are for choosing to wear that.

not the same as far as i'm concerned, badran. Could you pls explain those reasons for wearing burqa?

Also, if we assume one is worse than the other, it still doesn't justify the one that is a little less as bad. Its a very simple matter. We shouldn't force women to wear specific things, or forbid her to wear certain things, its as simple as that.

it does justify, badran. Simply because women wear burqa for religious reasons, and to be muslim, burqa is not necessary. But being muslim women are humans, they have freedom to breath comfortably, and etc..

You want to fight and stop those who force women to wear niqab or burqa, and rightly so. But we shouldn't do that by doing the same or even assumably less injustice to other women. We should fight those men who are forcing women to wear something.

good idea, but i think it is practically impossible.

 

[kai]

I don't think this is an issue of Men trying to oppress women but Westerners trying to oppress Islam.

well i would agree but as its not an Islamic requirement to wear a burka, its probably westerners trying to suppress an interpretation of Islam thats from an extremely patriarchal culture.

 

[darkendless]

Its funny how no one gives a damn about any country doing this unless its a western country.

We need to draw the line on what we do and do not accept in our country, but doing it slowly is going to aggrovate a lot of people.

Ask people in Australia what they think of the Burqa and 7 out of 10 would probably say they think its absolutely rediculous that we allow it. Democracy could see it banned here and why not? Whats wrong with a hijab?

 

[Tiapan]

I don't think this is an issue of Men trying to oppress women but Westerners trying to oppress Islam.

I teach refugees English, some of those are from Iran and Iraq, we show a series of photos of women in various degrees of scarves, hijab, nagibs, and burqas, to demonstrate diversity in culture, and how we should treat all equally and not "judge a book by its cover". However, one of the iranian muslim women pointed to the "lightly" scarved women and said these women respect their religion and the scarf is a sign of that dedication. She then pointed to the woman in the birqua and said "Beware of those who wear this, their husbands and sons are radical and dangerous".

So who do I believe some do good yuppy from America who says its fine and a woman's right to wear what she wants, or the person in the real world, from Iran who lives in fear of the radical fundamentalist version of Islam the birqua represents?

Its not the Birqua thats dangerous it is the thought process behind it that worries me.

Cheers

 

[Badran]

unfortunately not every muslim women should be courageous like taslima. Basic human rights is to be preserved at any cost, banning burqa is not wrong in such context.

It is. Because its an infantile and stupid way to solve a problem, if that is the intention. I thought by now the idea would've been clear. Oppressing some women for the sake of supposedly liberating others is not a solution.

not the same as far as i'm concerned, badran. Could you pls explain those reasons for wearing burqa?

Face covering in general, i'm not talking about burqa in particular, face covering are worn for religious reasons. People are supposed to be guaranteed the freedom of practicing their religion. Another thing, even if you merely look at it as a cultural thing, still people are allowed to wear what they want. And i already told you that even if we do not consider the two things (banning it, and forcing it) the same, still wouldn't justify this, because doing one lesser oppressive thing doesn't mean its good.

it does justify, badran. Simply because women wear burqa for religious reasons, and to be muslim, burqa is not necessary. But being muslim women are humans, they have freedom to breath comfortably, and etc..

Once again, what you think of it is irrelevant. It is actually in the eyes of some a religious necessity. And for those who don't look it as a necessity, but wear it as an extra effort, you still have no right to interfere with how she dresses, its non of your business.

good idea, but i think it is practically impossible.

Not even close to impossible. Impose serious laws and punishments for any man who is found out to be forcing this on his daughter, wife or whatever. And even if this solution doesn't work, find another. Because it still won't justify the oppression you've inflicted upon other women.

 

[Badran]

Ask people in Australia what they think of the Burqa and 7 out of 10 would probably say they think its absolutely rediculous that we allow it. Democracy could see it banned here and why not? Whats wrong with a hijab?

What they think is completely irrelevant. I can't believe this, why on earth would you have a say in how a woman chooses to dress?

 

[Cypress]

Hi Lava

The thing is if you go and live in say Belgium, then your kind of expected to live to their standards.

I don't understand why someone who doesn't feel comfortable with European culture wants to live in Europe.
There are enough Islamic countries in the worls, why not go there?

 

[nameless]

It is. Because its an infantile and stupid way to solve a problem, if that is the intention. I thought by now the idea would've been clear. Oppressing some women for the sake of supposedly liberating others is not a solution.

In islam it is only optional to cover face, it is not necessary. Islam finds nothing wrong in not covering the face, also you itself told women wear burqa for religious reasons, so if islam has no problem in that why its followers should worry? And as we know some muslim women struggles a lot wearing burka, burqa just hinders their basic human necessaties, like breathing. Why the basic necessity of humans should be sacrificed to preserve the optional choice of the few. Let people be of any faith, they are humans first, their necessities as humans should given more priority than those of religious.

Face covering in general, i'm not talking about burqa in particular, face covering are worn for religious reasons.

but burqa is not a necessity according to religion, then why some people consider it as a necessity?

People are supposed to be guaranteed the freedom of practicing their religion.

Primarily, people are supposed to be guaranteeed the basic human necessities, just because they are human first.

And i already told you that even if we do not consider the two things (banning it, and forcing it) the same, still wouldn't justify this, because doing one lesser oppressive thing doesn't mean its good.

Any practice which offers oppression should not be allowed. Still in this case, that which is not a necessity is only oppressed.

Once again, what you think of it is irrelevant. It is actually in the eyes of some a religious necessity.

Here you are wrong badran, How can burqa be a necessity if it is worn to please a religion, which not considers burqa a necessity?

And for those who don't look it as a necessity, but wear it as an extra effort, you still have no right to interfere with how she dresses, its non of your business.

Ofcourse, i dont have right to interfere, but a nation have right to interfere on that and make sure their people are not oppressed.

Not even close to impossible. Impose serious laws and punishments for any man who is found out to be forcing this on his daughter, wife or whatever. And even if this solution doesn't work, find another. Because it still won't justify the oppression you've inflicted upon other women.

lol, as you know muslim extremists are everywhere, i should consider security of my family atleast.

 

[Cypress]

In islam it is only optional to cover face, it is not necessary. Islam finds nothing wrong in not covering the face, also you itself told women wear burqa for religious reasons, so if islam has no problem in that why its followers should worry? And as we know some muslim women struggles a lot wearing burka, burqa just hinders their basic human necessaties, like breathing. Why the basic necessity of humans should be sacrificed to preserve the optional choice of the few. Let people be of any faith, they are humans first, their necessities as humans should given more priority than those of religious.

Primarily, people are supposed to be guaranteeed the basic human necessities, just because they are human first.

Agreed.
Burqa is also a health risk:

Burkas ‘are bad for your health’

Hijab and burka-wearing Muslim women are putting their health at risk because they do not get enough sunlight, doctors have warned.

An alarming number of Muslim women who wear headdresses such as the hijab, which covers the head, neck and shoulders, and the burka, which covers everything except the eyes, are suffering from bone deficiencies due to lack of vitamin D.

Most of the body's vitamin D, which helps calcium absorption and prevents the bone disorder rickets, is obtained through sunlight acting on the skin. Only a very small amount comes from food.

Women with darker skin are most at risk because it takes their bodies longer to produce the vitamin.

The NHS wants to encourage women from communities that embrace the hijab, such as those from Bangladesh, Pakistan and Somalia, to increase their vitamin D intake.

A Department for Health spokesman said: 'For ethnic groups there is an increased risk of vitamin D deficiency.

Studies have shown low levels in Asian women in the United Kingdom – particularly among those who cover most of their skin for cultural reasons.'

The problem first came to light in Bradford, which has one of the highest Muslim communities in Britain.

Through the Healthy Start scheme, families and pregnant women in Asian and African communities are being given vouchers for fruit, vegetables, milk, infant formula and vitamin supplements to help make up for their deficiencies.

source

Burqas cause vitamin D deficiency in women

In certain Middle Eastern and other countries where conservative dress curtails exposure to sunlight, high levels of vitamin D supplementation may be needed to raise serum levels sufficiently in women, investigators report.

"When sunlight exposure -- the main source for vitamin D in humans -- is limited," Dr. Hussein F. Saadi told Reuters Health, "much higher dietary intake of vitamin D is needed than currently recommended," especially for women who are breast-feeding.

As reported in the June issue of the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Saadi and colleagues at the United Arab Emirates University, Al Ain, studied vitamin D levels in 90 women who were breastfeeding and 88 women who had never given birth.
Many dressed to cover their whole bodies, including their hands and faces, while outside of their homes.

Only two of the women, one in each group, were not vitamin D deficient at study. All the women were randomly assigned to receive 2000 IU of vitamin D2 daily or 60,000 IU in one dose each month.
The investigators note that vitamin D2 is the only high-dose calciferol available in the UAE.

Although both monthly and daily dosing significantly and safely increased vitamin D levels, only 21 of the 71 women (30 percent) who completed the 3-month study reached the recommended blood levels.

Vitamin D2 doses "as high as 2000 IU per day were marginally effective in ensuring adequate vitamin D status," Saadi commented.
He and his colleagues suggest that "if the more potent vitamin D3 preparation is not available, higher doses of vitamin D2 than currently studied may be needed."

Dr. Saadi added, "When compliance or adherence with a daily regimen of vitamin D supplementation is an issue, monthly dosing appears to be a safe and effective alternative in ensuring adequate vitamin D status in subjects at risk for vitamin D deficiency."

SOURCE: American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, June 2007.

source

 

[Badran]

In islam it is only optional to cover face, it is not necessary. Islam finds nothing wrong in not covering the face, also you itself told women wear burqa for religious reasons, so if islam has no problem in that why its followers should worry?

but burqa is not a necessity according to religion, then why some people consider it as a necessity?

I do hope you can manage to understand this simple idea. I don't find niqab or burqa a religious necessity. I don't think its a requirement in Islam. Others however view it differently. And like i said necessity or not it is up to them to decide whatever they want to do in regards of their view of their religion. Those who don't think its a necessity but still wears it have every right to do so without your interference.

And as we know some muslim women struggles a lot wearing burka, burqa just hinders their basic human necessaties, like breathing. Why the basic necessity of humans should be sacrificed to preserve the optional choice of the few. Let people be of any faith, they are humans first, their necessities as humans should given more priority than those of religious.

First there is no human necessities scarified, there are some trouble in wearing this. Second it is up to them to do whatever they like in this regard. Third, nobody said to sacrifice anything, you are the one so eager to sacrifice the basic and obvious right for women to wear whatever they like, religious necessity or not, or even not religiously connected at all.

Any practice which offers oppression should not be allowed.

Indeed. I do hope you can apply that to all things, as hard as that seems to be for you to do.

Here you are wrong badran, How can burqa be a necessity if it is worn to please a religion, which not considers burqa a necessity?

I hope by now after you read my first part of this post, you understand what i mean. In case you still don't, once again, religious necessity or not, they are free to do what they want. And some do view it as a necessity, and even if it weren't religious at all, they still can wear whatever they like.

Ofcourse, i dont have right to interfere, but a nation have right to interfere on that and make sure their people are not oppressed.

Sure, just not in this pathetic way, by oppressing others.

lol, as you know muslim extremists are everywhere, i should consider security of my family atleast.

What?

 

[kai]

I teach refugees English, some of those are from Iran and Iraq, we show a series of photos of women in various degrees of scarves, hijab, nagibs, and burqas, to demonstrate diversity in culture, and how we should treat all equally and not "judge a book by its cover". However, one of the iranian muslim women pointed to the "lightly" scarved women and said these women respect their religion and the scarf is a sign of that dedication. She then pointed to the woman in the birqua and said "Beware of those who wear this, their husbands and sons are radical and dangerous".

So who do I believe some do good yuppy from America who says its fine and a woman's right to wear what she wants, or the person in the real world, from Iran who lives in fear of the radical fundamentalist version of Islam the birqua represents?

Its not the Birqua thats dangerous it is the thought process behind it that worries me.

Cheers

Then its the thought process behind it we must address not the Burka itself .

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Then its the thought process behind it we must address not the Burka itself .

Excellent! :clap

 

[Alceste]

Its funny how no one gives a damn about any country doing this unless its a western country.

We need to draw the line on what we do and do not accept in our country, but doing it slowly is going to aggrovate a lot of people.

Ask people in Australia what they think of the Burqa and 7 out of 10 would probably say they think its absolutely rediculous that we allow it. Democracy could see it banned here and why not? Whats wrong with a hijab?

If 7 out of 10 Australians disapprove of YOUR outfit, do you think it should be illegal for you to wear it? The fuss is kicked up in Western countries because they claim to uphold civil liberties such as non-discrimination based on gender, ethnicity or religion. Many countries make no such claim, so they are not being shameless hypocrites, at least.

 

[Alceste]

. However, one of the iranian muslim women pointed to the "lightly" scarved women and said these women respect their religion and the scarf is a sign of that dedication. She then pointed to the woman in the birqua and said "Beware of those who wear this, their husbands and sons are radical and dangerous".

So who do I believe some do good yuppy from America who says its fine and a woman's right to wear what she wants, or the person in the real world, from Iran who lives in fear of the radical fundamentalist version of Islam the birqua represents?h

Its not the Birqua thats dangerous it is the thought process behind it that worries me.

Cheers

How is restricting a woman's right to wear whatever she wants going to turn her husbands and sons away from extremism? Why not restrict the freedoms of the husbands and sons instead?