Now It's Student Led Prayer at Football Games

[Father Heathen]

It's analogous. Turkey has a secular government even though it is a Muslim country. The US has a secular government even though it is a Christian nation. Look, I'm Jewish, and it makes no sense to me to deny that the culture all around me is Christian. It is what it is.

Regardless of who the majority might be, the government is supposed to represent the entire citizenry and therefore should be neutral regarding religion as per the Establishment Clause of The First Amendment. Of course individual students should be able to pray, read scripture, cast spells, toss chicken bones or whatever, but the school itself has no business leading or mandating such practices. Tax payers shouldn't be expected to fund the proselytization of a religion they don't believe in, nor should students of different/no religion be subjected to it. Leave that nonsense for the churches/private schools, not public schools, which are supposed to teach, not preach.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Regardless of who the majority might be, the government is supposed to represent the entire citizenry and therefore should be neutral regarding religion as per the Establishment Clause of The First Amendment. Of course individual students should be able to pray, read scripture, cast spells, toss chicken bones or whatever, but the school itself has no business leading or mandating such practices. Tax payers shouldn't be expected to fund the proselytization of a religion they don't believe in, nor should students of different/no religion be subjected to it. Leave that nonsense for the churches/private schools, not public schools, which are supposed to teach, not preach.

It's called majority rule with minority rights protected. No one is forcing me as a Jew to become a Chrisitan. America as a whole has been very very good to Jews. But we are still the odd man out, and that's just kind of the way life is. There's no sense in whining about it. What's the alternative to a Christian nation? A Muslim nation? A Buddhist nation? A secular humanist nation? None of those is any better, and none of those has been shown to treat us as well as the US

As for proselytization, when JW's come to my door, I simply tell them I'm a Jew and not interested and have a nice day. Why should I get bent out of shape?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

oops

 

[Skwim]

It's called majority rule with minority rights protected. No one is forcing me as a Jew to become a Chrisitan. America as a whole has been very very good to Jews. But we are still the odd man out, and that's just kind of the way life is. There's no sense in whining about it. What's the alternative to a Christian nation? A Muslim nation? A Buddhist nation? A secular humanist nation? None of those is any better, and none of those has been shown to treat us as well as the US

As for proselytization, when JW's come to my door, I simply tell them I'm a Jew and not interested and have a nice day. Why should I get bent out of shape?

Good for you, I guess. I find visiting JWs and Mormons an uninvited annoyance. After I stand in silence listening to their opening remarks, with a dead-pan face and in a quiet voice, I usually say, matter-of-factly, "Please go away" while starring them in the eye. If they persist, without batting an eye I simply repeat myself, but without the "Please." A guy I once worked with said that when they came to the door he'd turn his head slightly to the rear and shout "Honey, get the shotgun. They're here again." He really got a kick out of their visits.

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[Father Heathen]

What's the alternative to a Christian nation?

How about the one outlined by The U.S. Constitution? Look at the repressive 3rd world theocracies of the Middle East if you don't understand why the separation of church and state is important.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It's called majority rule with minority rights protected. No one is forcing me as a Jew to become a Chrisitan.

But everyone at that football game had Christian prayer forced on them.

America as a whole has been very very good to Jews. But we are still the odd man out, and that's just kind of the way life is. There's no sense in whining about it. What's the alternative to a Christian nation? A Muslim nation? A Buddhist nation? A secular humanist nation? None of those is any better, and none of those has been shown to treat us as well as the US

It’s not about having a “Christian nation” or not; it’s about having a Christian government. It’s about whether the government will have special treatment - positive or negative - for different religious groups.

As for proselytization, when JW's come to my door, I simply tell them I'm a Jew and not interested and have a nice day. Why should I get bent out of shape?

How would you feel if the person proselytizing at your door was a uniformed cop?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

How about the one outlined by The U.S. Constitution? Look at the repressive 3rd world theocracies of the Middle East if you don't understand why the separation of church and state is important.

There are many ways to be a Christian nation besides being a theocracy. We are currently a Christian nation, and we are certainly not a theocracy.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

But everyone at that football game had Christian prayer forced on them.


It’s not about having a “Christian nation” or not; it’s about having a Christian government. It’s about whether the government will have special treatment - positive or negative - for different religious groups.


How would you feel if the person proselytizing at your door was a uniformed cop?

Please give realistic examples if you want me to take you seriously. If the prayer at a ball game is in Jesus' name, no one can force me to join in. I have plenty of relatives who are Christian and who do Christian prayers, and I just sit politely. It is not a big deal. And no one proselytizes on the job. It's not appropriate -- we should be working at work.

It just doesnt bother me that for example, Christmas is a national holiday and Hanukkah isn't. I can DEAL with living in a country where I'm the minority religion, as long as they leave me alone and let me worship freely -- AND THEY DO.

 

[metis]

A high school is classified as a public institution run by government, therefore having any staff organizing any form of prayer in any way violates the 1st Amendment's "Establishment Clause". If a student does it on his/her own, (s)he has the right to say a public prayer, but the minute they try and organize it so as to do so as representing the school or even their group within the school, they're likely in violation.

 

[loganonekenobi]

Explain the difference between culturally Christian and legally Christian, and how that would influence things that happen in our everyday lives like prayer at football games.

1)Culturaly... the majority of people are christian.2) Legally... the law that this country is based on does not favor any one religion including christianity. and to answer question #2. In a public tax funded school anytime an audience is captive (or must hear it with out consent) to a prayer then it does violate the 1st amendment. Any person is free to pray as they choose but not over the loud speaker. How it influences our every day lives? Just imaging that this country was culturally Hindu but legally secular. How do you think the Christians would react to a prayer led by a student to Shiva over the loud speaker? We already know from public office meetings prayers to Satan that they would lose their minds. The sad fact is that Christians don't truly believe in fair treatment of other faiths. put simply, they don't play nice with the other kids and that is the problem.

 

[loganonekenobi]

Please give realistic examples if you want me to take you seriously. If the prayer at a ball game is in Jesus' name, no one can force me to join in. I have plenty of relatives who are Christian and who do Christian prayers, and I just sit politely. It is not a big deal. And no one proselytizes on the job. It's not appropriate -- we should be working at work.

It just doesnt bother me that for example, Christmas is a national holiday and Hanukkah isn't. I can DEAL with living in a country where I'm the minority religion, as long as they leave me alone and let me worship freely -- AND THEY DO.

The problem is that if one goes to a government institution and sees clearly that one faith is favored over others it can lead to the idea (and therefore distrust) that minorities will not be treated fairly. If you look at american history this is not a difficult objective to conclude.

 

[loganonekenobi]

I give up.

Have a good day.

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I wont give up. On more than one occasion a student (in high school) wanted to start an atheist club. Can you guess what happened? Of course, the christian faculty did every thing possible to stop the formation of said club. When the students have to resort to legal action to make a student led club happen then you know there is a problem. Again i'm okay with the expression of faith as long as no faithor philosophy is stifled. Just in case you are wondering... yes i can give you evidence of such a thing happening.... more than once.

 

[Skwim]

I wont give up. On more than one occasion a student (in high school) wanted to start an atheist club. Can you guess what happened? Of course, the christian faculty did every thing possible to stop the formation of said club. When the students have to resort to legal action to make a student led club happen then you know there is a problem. Again i'm okay with the expression of faith as long as no faithor philosophy is stifled. Just in case you are wondering... yes i can give you evidence of such a thing happening.... more than once.

If I recall correctly, SCOTUS said religious clubs could only assemble during after school hours.

.

 

[loganonekenobi]

correct.

 

[metis]

I wont give up. On more than one occasion a student (in high school) wanted to start an atheist club. Can you guess what happened? Of course, the christian faculty did every thing possible to stop the formation of said club.

The same think happened in a town near an Indian reservation on Lake Superior that I have spent a lot of time on. At the nearby public school that some Ojibwe attend, they wanted to have time after hours for "drumming", which is of a religious nature, but they were denied by the administration even though Christian students were allowed to meet after hours. When the tribe was going to take them to court, the administration suddenly got "religion" and relented.

 

[Faithofchristian]

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"An OH School District Wrongly Thinks Student-Led Loudspeaker Prayers Are Legal
​

Earlier this year, the Freedom From Religion Foundation wrote a letter to the West Branch Local School District in Ohio because prayers were being recited over the loudspeaker at school-sponsored events. That’s obviously illegal, and the District agreed to put a stop to it by replacing all those prayers with a moment of silence.

Then they backtracked. On August 20, the school board voted to allow a “limited open forum” at school events. In theory, that means students could lead prayers (which is always legal). But in practice, the District figured that was the loophole they needed to exploit in order to continue the loudspeaker prayers. They didn’t understand that students who decide on their own to pray to Jesus still don’t have the legal right to use the school’s resources to broadcast that prayer.

According to schools Superintendent Timothy Saxton, the addendum “helps us more clearly define and implement our policy allowing student-led voluntary invocations before events. The board felt this resolution gives us more direction as a district and administrative team for future challenges.”

Saxton in an email Thursday praised the board on its action.

“I applaud the board’s decision as it has taken a clear stand and feels that the tradition of allowing (prayer) before home varsity events is something that truly matters to our students and the West Branch Local School District’s strong faith-based community,” he said.
​

Make no mistake: This was all about religion, and letting students use the loudspeaker to promote their religious views at school events was a lawsuit waiting to happen. It’s already happened. Last Friday night, there was a Christian prayer said over the loudspeakers before a football game. The public address announcer said it wasn’t sponsored by the school, but that’s really an irrelevant remark. It was like fine print that no one was ever going to see.

That’s the argument FFRF’s legal fellow Christopher Line made in a letter sent to the District on Friday:

Establishing a “limited public forum” to ensure that students will pray before games, and then including a disclaimer that this is not sponsored by the school does not make this practice legal… The Supreme Court has specifically struck down invocations given over the loudspeaker at public school athletic events, even when students-led.
​

The school has to decide what’s more important: Pushing Jesus on everybody (and dealing with the inevitable lawsuit), or saying no to the prayers and reminding students they can all talk to God silently and telepathically anytime they want. Hell, even if they want to do it vocally and for show, they can do it in the parking lot before the enter. The District shouldn’t be helping them out.

This isn’t complicated. At least it wouldn’t be if the school board gave a damn about following the law."
source​

*sigh* They just don't get it...............Or is it that they don't want to get it? In either case, STUPIDITY AGAIN REIGNS.

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.​

So what's so wrong in that?

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

So what's so wrong in that?

You'd be happy for a Muslim student led prayer over the loudspeaker, would you?

 

[Muffled]

.

"An OH School District Wrongly Thinks Student-Led Loudspeaker Prayers Are Legal
​

Earlier this year, the Freedom From Religion Foundation wrote a letter to the West Branch Local School District in Ohio because prayers were being recited over the loudspeaker at school-sponsored events. That’s obviously illegal, and the District agreed to put a stop to it by replacing all those prayers with a moment of silence.

Then they backtracked. On August 20, the school board voted to allow a “limited open forum” at school events. In theory, that means students could lead prayers (which is always legal). But in practice, the District figured that was the loophole they needed to exploit in order to continue the loudspeaker prayers. They didn’t understand that students who decide on their own to pray to Jesus still don’t have the legal right to use the school’s resources to broadcast that prayer.

According to schools Superintendent Timothy Saxton, the addendum “helps us more clearly define and implement our policy allowing student-led voluntary invocations before events. The board felt this resolution gives us more direction as a district and administrative team for future challenges.”

Saxton in an email Thursday praised the board on its action.

“I applaud the board’s decision as it has taken a clear stand and feels that the tradition of allowing (prayer) before home varsity events is something that truly matters to our students and the West Branch Local School District’s strong faith-based community,” he said.
​

Make no mistake: This was all about religion, and letting students use the loudspeaker to promote their religious views at school events was a lawsuit waiting to happen. It’s already happened. Last Friday night, there was a Christian prayer said over the loudspeakers before a football game. The public address announcer said it wasn’t sponsored by the school, but that’s really an irrelevant remark. It was like fine print that no one was ever going to see.

That’s the argument FFRF’s legal fellow Christopher Line made in a letter sent to the District on Friday:

Establishing a “limited public forum” to ensure that students will pray before games, and then including a disclaimer that this is not sponsored by the school does not make this practice legal… The Supreme Court has specifically struck down invocations given over the loudspeaker at public school athletic events, even when students-led.
​

The school has to decide what’s more important: Pushing Jesus on everybody (and dealing with the inevitable lawsuit), or saying no to the prayers and reminding students they can all talk to God silently and telepathically anytime they want. Hell, even if they want to do it vocally and for show, they can do it in the parking lot before the enter. The District shouldn’t be helping them out.

This isn’t complicated. At least it wouldn’t be if the school board gave a damn about following the law."
source​

*sigh* They just don't get it...............Or is it that they don't want to get it? In either case, STUPIDITY AGAIN REIGNS.

.
.​

I believe the supreme court ruling was wrong and a new court would rule differently.

 

[Muffled]

This ruling will probably last until someone at this school has a fit when Satanists or Muslims try to open a game with a prayer or bring in a verse from the Quran. Then we'll see that it was never about religious freedom but rather about Christian privilege once again.

I believe if we want fairness for Christians then we have to accept fairness for others as well.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

I believe the supreme court ruling was wrong and a new court would rule differently.

You can believe what you like, but until some future Supreme Court makes a different ruling, the law is what it is.