Now that the door is open, where does it close?

[URAVIP2ME]

Heh. I guess we can relate in some way. ^_^
Though there's always the important thing to consider: as humans we are social species, and thus NEED socialization outside of the family unit. Otherwise... we tend to go kinda... cookoo. ESPECIALLY true for extroverts. Hence the necessity for extracurricular activities (in your case... wait, to JWs have Sunday Church? 'Cause that's actually a great source for such socialization).
It's also important to remember that sheltering kids can cause MAJOR problems later in life. I, for instance, was not home schooled but still very sheltered. If you want to know just how sheltered I was, and to a degree still am, I didn't know about Jesus until I was in Middle School, and even then my primary introduction to the guy was Jesus Christ Superstar. I knew the name "God", but because I misunderstood something my parents had said, I thought it was a bad word, and thought that it referred to some King of Angels (which is what dead people become when they go to Heaven, i.e., the Sky, which made my conception of God's function much closer to a Sky God form of Hades... take that for what you will). Anyway, one result of being so sheltered is that I'm incredibly timid and have SEVERE social anxiety. I could easily, very easily, develop paranoia or anthropophobia. Doesn't help that I have asperger's syndrome, which makes me incapable of instinctively performing certain social behaviors.
And, of course, with cyberbullying being so widespread, home schooling no longer protects kids from such abuse. You could try limiting their online activities, but... seriously, at this point, I'm not sure how possible that is outside an Amish or Amish-like community. They could easily grow to resent you and thus rebel HARD. As it were, when you make sex evil, you make evil sexy.

I had a neighbor and a friend who both home schooled their children:

The neighbor's daughter was very bored in school and they asked if she could skip a grade and the school said No.
She took her daughter out of school, and she was No longer bored and excelled so much more in her studies that the neighbor's son was then, against his wishes, taken out of school. Within a short time he too adjusted and excelled in his studies. However, the mom did become a Taxi Mom because of taking them to gym/swim classes, art classes, music classes, chess classes, etc.

My friend first took her daughter out of school, and she and other mothers who home schooled took their children as a group to tour museums, zoos, besides other educational places and activities. She too, against her sons wishes, then took him out of school and he adjusted and today he and his wife have a successful business together.

So, from my experience home schooling does Not have to mean isolation or lack of socialization.

 

[Riverwolf]

We also interact socially. Our kids have sleepovers and such. There is no shortage of socialisation.

I understand about sheltering. Helicopter parenting is everywhere. But it's getting harder and harder to protect our kids from the nasty side of this world.
A balance can be struck by educating them about the consequences of the dangers, especially of drug abuse and casual sex.
We can never guarantee that they will accept our standards or lifestyle, because as adults we must all make our own decisions.
The nature/nurture side of child rearing is the major determining factor in how our children turn out. You cannot expect unbalanced individuals to raise balanced children. Add autism or other mental health issues to the mix and it is doubly challenging. Alphabet kids are everywhere! ADD, ADHD, ASD, ODD etc.....

Actually, we try not to give our children mobile phones too young and numbers are given only to trusted friends.

Smart.

The ideal is to teach them to live IN the world without becoming corrupted by it. It's hard, but not impossible. At the end of the day, our children will make up their own minds about how to live their lives as adults. All we can hope is that we have given them sound values and that they are responsible human beings in the end. Spirituality must be nurtured or it will not serve as a moral compass in life.

That is true. We can't force our values on them....but we can extol them and hope for the best. Having a concept of a higher power (in the form of a loving Father) who is a rewarded of good behavior helps to boost the faculty of conscience. We all have one. Consciences only work if they have been trained the right way. The more we ignore it the easier it is to go the wrong way. It is so much harder to come back from a wrong course than to see the danger and avoid it in the first place.

Our philosophies on what moral living in the world are certainly different, but I think it's good that you're acknowledging the virtue of allowing them to find their own path in the end.

 

[Riverwolf]

I had a neighbor and a friend who both home schooled their children:

The neighbor's daughter was very bored in school and they asked if she could skip a grade and the school said No.
She took her daughter out of school, and she was No longer bored and excelled so much more in her studies that the neighbor's son was then, against his wishes, taken out of school. Within a short time he too adjusted and excelled in his studies. However, the mom did become a Taxi Mom because of taking them to gym/swim classes, art classes, music classes, chess classes, etc.

My friend first took her daughter out of school, and she and other mothers who home schooled took their children as a group to tour museums, zoos, besides other educational places and activities. She too, against her sons wishes, then took him out of school and he adjusted and today he and his wife have a successful business together.

So, from my experience home schooling does Not have to mean isolation or lack of socialization.

I know, I simply felt the need to point it out because sheltering children was brought up.

 

[NewGuyOnTheBlock]

I guess we learned nothing from the fall of Rome...did we? The most powerful empire on earth disintegrated due to its own decadence, immorality and the breakdown of the family unit. The family is the backbone of society.....sadly, today it's back is broken.

I didn't read past page 5 and didn't read much of THAT page.

Rome did not fall because of decadence or decline in morality. In fact, Rome didn't fall until after Christianity. Economic and military troubles are the most prominent accepted reasons why Rome fell. Why must we rewrite history to prove a point?

 

[idea]

I have note read the entire thread, but our church (LDS) recently posted a letter that is being read at all of our churches that equates the recent ruling as being similar to when alcohol was legalized. Just because it is legal to drink alcohol doesn't mean the church changed its position on anything.

What does it open the door for? polygamy? MBLA? ... probably not. (What did legalizing alcohol open the door for? are all drugs now legal?)

Does it open the door to persecution against church organizations who refuse to do things like perform same-sex marriages, to bakeries who refuse to bake wedding cakes, or photographers who refuse to take pictures, or persecution against priests who promote traditional family values? Yes.

I suppose there are a few other issues too - like public bathroom access, gender issues within schools, and within all organizations like boy scouts, etc.

 

[dgirl1986]

I didn't read past page 5 and didn't read much of THAT page.

Rome did not fall because of decadence or decline in morality. In fact, Rome didn't fall until after Christianity. Economic and military troubles are the most prominent accepted reasons why Rome fell. Why must we rewrite history to prove a point?

I couldnt even read past the first page. These types of threads are usually filled with misinformation and fear mongering.

 

[JoStories]

JayJayDee, you and my mother could be best friends.
She tried to control every aspect of my life too, and still does.
She overly sheltered me.
She is a leading member of the PTA group that killed science classes in my schools.
She treated me like a puppy that needed to be raised not to **** on the floor.
She restricted heavily what shows I could watch, when, and how long.
She gave me only one option in any scenario that she thought related to religion.

and when I rejected all that, she disowned me.
Would you disown your kids for your religion?
I ask that under the assumption you have kids that are young or intend to have kids one day.
You seem the type that would, but at the same time I kinda think you wouldn't.

You'd have to be a pretty big b***h to just reject your child for something so subjective.
Then again Jesus did basically say to love him more than your family or no Heaven for you.
Matthew 10 | ReligiousForums.com
10:37

Don't know if JWs follow all that or not, never cared enough to really find out.
Then again I never cared enough about Christianity as a whole to figure out which part believes whatever.

Wow...so sorry that your mother did that but speaking honestly, I'm not terribly surprised. My daughter was raped at 8 and to this day, she blames me, thanks to the d*ck who is her father. I have not seen my daughter in about 20 years and I will never get to meet my grandchildren. All in the name of religion and so on. So as I said, its not terribly surprising Default. However, that doesn't diminish how horrible it is. I am so sorry. Please know I completely understand.

 

[Marisa]

I didn't read past page 5 and didn't read much of THAT page.

Rome did not fall because of decadence or decline in morality. In fact, Rome didn't fall until after Christianity. Economic and military troubles are the most prominent accepted reasons why Rome fell. Why must we rewrite history to prove a point?

Are you familiar with a guy named David Barton?

 

[Marisa]

I have note read the entire thread, but our church (LDS) recently posted a letter that is being read at all of our churches that equates the recent ruling as being similar to when alcohol was legalized. Just because it is legal to drink alcohol doesn't mean the church changed its position on anything.

The US government isn't likely to be seen attempting to force churches to perform religious rites (matrimony, unlike marriage, is one) that they feel are against their dogma. The LDS church does, as we all know, have a somewhat infamous history of stepping over its side of the wall and attempting to (monetarily) influence if not outright enter political outcomes regarding the issue of same sex marriage in at least 2 states (California, Hawaii). Many people are of the opinion that if churches are going to continue to blur the line between church/state separation, they should be forced to support their communities the same way we all do: through taxes. The implications of that to churches are probably not going to produce mega churches for very long.

What does it open the door for? polygamy? MBLA? ... probably not. (What did legalizing alcohol open the door for? are all drugs now legal?)

Please don't tell me I have to explain the concept of consent one again. I'm really getting tired of explaining that. In fact, I'm really getting tired of folks who understand a concept unilaterally, until it's applied in an area where they feel they have religious dogma to protect. I doubt seriously that too many people are upset about polygamy because there are too many wives, but because of the rather disturbing habit of many who practice polygamy to marry off underage children. That's the exact same reason, funnily enough, that MBLA groups won't every be accepted in our society.

Does it open the door to persecution against church organizations who refuse to do things like perform same-sex marriages, to bakeries who refuse to bake wedding cakes, or photographers who refuse to take pictures, or persecution against priests who promote traditional family values? Yes.

See first paragraph. Add: why is it so difficulty for people who preach "personal responsibility" to understand how that applies to them? It's really simple: if you don't feel like, as an employer, you can follow simple laws then exercise your personal responsibility and don't become a business owner. Remain an employee. No one is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to own a business. You can work as a baker without owning a bakery. Or, if you feel like your belief has given you some authority to approve of how other people live their lives that that rest of us knuckle-dragging bottom-dwellers don't possess, work in an office pushing papers around. None of us will care, as long as you don't go around strapping a holy book to a stick and beating people with it. That's unattractive.

I suppose there are a few other issues too - like public bathroom access, gender issues within schools, and within all organizations like boy scouts, etc.

Quick question: do you want someone who looks like Chaz Bono in the girls room with you?

 

[Marisa]

I couldnt even read past the first page. These types of threads are usually filled with misinformation and fear mongering.

You should, it gets side splittingly hilarious.

 

[Deathbydefault]

Wow...so sorry that your mother did that but speaking honestly, I'm not terribly surprised. My daughter was raped at 8 and to this day, she blames me, thanks to the d*ck who is her father. I have not seen my daughter in about 20 years and I will never get to meet my grandchildren. All in the name of religion and so on. So as I said, its not terribly surprising Default. However, that doesn't diminish how horrible it is. I am so sorry. Please know I completely understand.

Thank you.
I'm sorry your daughter was treated in such a way,
and that you have to suffer emotionally in such a way due to it.

Your understanding is appreciated, I can also understand where you're coming from, sadly. World's a fun place.

 

[Windwalker]

"Choose your fantasy"...that's the name of the game apparently. We have more knowledge today than at any other time in history. Ignorance can no longer be claimed by the masses. People are making their choices based on what "they" want to believe about everything.

Well spoken. It explains the anti-intellectualism rampant in fundamentalist Christianity. They are wilfully choosing to be ignorant in the face of knowledge. This wilful ignorance is a sin against God. They choose not to listen to the information that the gifts of intelligence from God offers mankind through the use of the tools of science and reason, all the while masking their willful ignorance in the garbs of religious piety. Pity for them. They are worse off than the simply ignorant.

Can anyone prepare a defence before the Creator if he comes to demand an accounting? Our choices determine our future. If you see no future, then you get what you asked for. That's fair isn't it?

Maybe others don't imagine God as a terrible parent who whips his children with steel wires and locks them into dark rooms with locked doors when he gets home looking to see which child hasn't listened to his demands upon them under the threat of his boot. Maybe others know what a loving parent looks like, and reject the religious view of God which casts him as an abusive parent.

 

[JoStories]

Thank you.
I'm sorry your daughter was treated in such a way,
and that you have to suffer emotionally in such a way due to it.

Your understanding is appreciated, I can also understand where you're coming from, sadly. World's a fun place.

IMO, its all about the lessons we learn from this. In my case, it's loss. HUGE loss. My children, my partner, my beloved father, etc. There was a time that the situation with my daughter engendered much guilt and anger. Now, I have accepted this loss and don't blame either myself, my daughter, or the sperm donor (yeah, I have some anger issues with that horse's arse). The loss of my partner taught me that love is transcendent and it will be there in the next life. Its all about how we look at this and understand it.

 

[Deathbydefault]

IMO, its all about the lessons we learn from this. In my case, it's loss. HUGE loss. My children, my partner, my beloved father, etc. There was a time that the situation with my daughter engendered much guilt and anger. Now, I have accepted this loss and don't blame either myself, my daughter, or the sperm donor (yeah, I have some anger issues with that horse's arse). The loss of my partner taught me that love is transcendent and it will be there in the next life. Its all about how we look at this and understand it.

The lesson I learned was to rely only on myself and my own means.
I don't think I can sympathize with loss, I've never felt that before, I think.

Did you allow the one that wronged your family to live?

 

[JoStories]

The lesson I learned was to rely only on myself and my own means.
I don't think I can sympathize with loss, I've never felt that before, I think.

Did you allow the one that wronged your family to live?

1. Of course you have experienced loss, unless you do have a relationship with your mother. That is loss, in a grand scale. The loss of a better, more nurturing childhood is also a loss for you. I admire your ability to rely on yourself, however. That takes guts and strength.
2. I did have the SOB put in jail, two f**king years! But I did have a friend from Nam that offered to kill the man for me. An assassin, this man, or rather a sharp shooter who killed a lot of the enemy in Nam, and I actually thought about it for a few seconds and then said no. The man was released in 2 years and then raped and murdered a 4 year old. He is now out, a registered sex offender, unfortunately living in my own town. Life is funny, as you said.

 

[Deathbydefault]

1. Of course you have experienced loss, unless you do have a relationship with your mother. That is loss, in a grand scale. The loss of a better, more nurturing childhood is also a loss for you. I admire your ability to rely on yourself, however. That takes guts and strength.
2. I did have the SOB put in jail, two f**king years! But I did have a friend from Nam that offered to kill the man for me. An assassin, this man, or rather a sharp shooter who killed a lot of the enemy in Nam, and I actually thought about it for a few seconds and then said no. The man was released in 2 years and then raped and murdered a 4 year old. He is now out, a registered sex offender, unfortunately living in my own town. Life is funny, as you said.

I don't experience love very well, and I don't ever recall liking my mother.
I don't know any other form of childhood so I can't say that would be a loss either.
I have issues with experiencing and identifying emotions.
I know what they are supposed to be like, from reading about them, though.

I never understood why anyone would let such people get away with their lives.
If such a man ever came into contact with my youngest sister I'd be the one going to jail, assuming police found whatever was left.
Also assuming a few other variables, such as me getting hold of him.
But it seems many people don't have the will to do such things.

Again, sorry for you and your daughters experiences.

 

[averageJOE]

The ideal is to teach them to live IN the world without becoming corrupted by it. It's hard, but not impossible. At the end of the day, our children will make up their own minds about how to live their lives as adults. All we can hope is that we have given them sound values and that they are responsible human beings in the end. Spirituality must be nurtured or it will not serve as a moral compass in life.

Now that you said that...why don't you tell everyone what happens to a JW who grows up and chooses to live their life in a way that doesn't correlate with the Watchtowers rules 100%. For example, what do elders and congregation members do to a JW who makes up their mind and chooses to get a blood transfusion? What do elders and congregation members do to a JW who makes up their mind and decides to attend a gay wedding?

 

[Nakosis]

Pfft, we Aussies were wondering when you sheltered American Schools were going to actually teach something about sex to your poor deprived kids.
Only kidding, of course.

Though I have a feeling that the sexual education/health classes we have in our public schools would make you lot blush redder than a capsicum. And we don't even have legal same sex marriage yet (hopefully soon.)

Yes, we Americans are pretty prudish when it comes to sex. I assume it is a culturally ingrained perspective by religious idealism. I find it difficult to completely separate myself from my culture even though intellectually I understand it may not be very rational. Sex is a sin, sex is evil, but violence is ok. Kind of weird, but conditioned thinking. It's so much a part of who they are, folks don't even question it.

 

[Deathbydefault]

Yes, we Americans are pretty prudish when it comes to sex. I assume it is a culturally ingrained perspective by religious idealism. I find it difficult to completely separate myself from my culture even though intellectually I understand it may not be very rational. Sex is a sin, sex is evil, but violence is ok. Kind of weird, but conditioned thinking. It's so much a part of who they are, folks don't even question it.

Such things change with new generations.

 

[jonathan180iq]

First of all farts don't fly in space....

Yes they do.
There's much less resistance to their travel in space, so they'll speed merrily along, much further than they would here on Earth.
Also, even a general understanding of Newton's laws of motion tell you that not only will the fart itself travel further in space, but the farter will also be propelled in an opposite direction from the far loci. While quite weak in comparison to other systems, the butthole is a very efficient, self-contained, propulsion system