NYC mayor compulsary imprisonment of those deemed mentally ill begins

[Father Heathen]

In a free country people don't support the kind of idiot dribble you appear to enjoy and relish so much.

What "idiot dribble"? That our privatized healthcare system is a predatory, price gauging racket that drives people either into debt or into the grave?

 

[Twilight Hue]

What "idiot dribble"? That our privatized healthcare system is a predatory, price gauging racket that drives people either into debt or into the grave?

And now including incarceration against one's will.

I'm sure they will be billed for it too.

 

[Father Heathen]

And that results in authorities physically carting off people involuntarily against their will?

May you ought to make better comparisons.

If they pose a clear danger to themselves or others, yes.

I suspect if it were enacted by a Republican, you would support it for "backing the blue". As I've stated, your OP just a political, knee-jerk reaction.

 

[SomeRandom]

A doctor can declare a person mentally ill, but when you bypass that now and have the authorities make that determination themselves, it's pretty much an authoritarian regime from that point on where just anyone they want can be pulled off the streets and incarcerated at the governments behest on the sole basis they are declared mentally ill on a whim.

The US idea of so called “authoritarian government” is so bizarre it’s not recognised outside of it. I’ve seen folks label governments mandating a cap on full time working hours as “authoritarian.” So please forgive my skepticism of the usage in this scenario.

This has been a thing in my country and I’m pretty sure every single developed nation (but please don’t quote me on that) for like years at this point.
Whilst I can agree there is certainly potential for abuse, which is why we have specialised lawyers to deal with such cases, if a person is literally a danger to themselves and others, often the authorities don’t have any other choice. I mean you could lock them up in prison, I suppose, since crime can also easily occur from such scenarios. But that’s typically seen as inhumane. At least outside the US

 

[Father Heathen]

And now including incarceration against one's will.

I'm sure they will be billed for it too.

Should people be released if they don't consent to incarceration? Jails and prisons would be pretty empty.

If someone is running around with a knife, threatening to kill themselves and/or others, you believe cops should wait until after someone is either killed or wounded?

 

[Father Heathen]

I also support states that allow those things.

Your one sided views are pretty pathetic in making your poor arguments stick.

So you support states being authoritarian, unless it's New York? So Republican authoritarianism only?

 

[Twilight Hue]

The US idea of so called “authoritarian government” is so bizarre it’s not recognised outside of it. I’ve seen folks label governments mandating a cap on full time working hours as “authoritarian.” So please forgive my skepticism of the usage in this scenario.

This has been a thing in my country and I’m pretty sure every single developed nation (but please don’t quote me on that) for like years at this point.
Whilst I can agree there is certainly potential for abuse, which is why we have specialised lawyers to deal with such cases, if a person is literally a danger to themselves and others, often the authorities don’t have any other choice. I mean you could lock them up in prison, I suppose, since crime can also easily occur from such scenarios. But that’s typically seen as inhumane. At least outside the US

The problem is only a doctor can make that determination. To expand that where an arbitrary pronouncement of one as mentally ill, other than a doctor, in order to remove that person off the street is, imv hideously dangerous for a free society.

 

[sun rise]

A doctor can declare a person mentally ill, but when you bypass that now and have the authorities make that determination themselves, it's pretty much an authoritarian regime from that point on where just anyone they want can be pulled off the streets and incarcerated at the governments behest on the sole basis they are declared mentally ill on a whim.

Clearly you did not read the details:

First, we have issued a new directive to our Department of Health and Mental Hygiene mobile crisis teams, FDNY-EMS, and the NYPD. This directive lays out an expedited, step-by-step process for involuntarily transporting a person experiencing a mental health crisis to a hospital for evaluation. https://www.nyc.gov/office-of-the-m...ividuals-suffering-untreated-severe-mental#/0

 

[Father Heathen]

The problem is only a doctor can make that determination. To expand that where an arbitrary pronouncement of one as mentally ill, other than a doctor, in order to remove that person off the street is, imv hideously dangerous for a free society.

You know what, I agree. Cops should also leave people under the influence alone and never administer first aid since they're not doctors and thus can't make determinations.

 

[SomeRandom]

The problem is only a doctor can make that determination. To expand that where an arbitrary pronouncement of one as mentally ill, other than a doctor, in order to remove that person off the street is, imv hideously dangerous for a free society.

Whilst I certainly sympathise with such a view (given the reputation of US police officers right now) often they are the first responders to dangerous scenarios. As such they are required by their job to make medical split second decisions by default.
And like it or not, that includes instances where a person is so mentally ill, they need to be, for lack of a better phrase, locked up for their own good.
A first responder needs to be able to make that call. If it’s the wrong call, then sure, the person should absolutely have the right to challenge that in a court of law and ideally that should not be at cost to them. Though in the US going to get a doctors note costs you guys more than it does me, so again I can sympathise with the view that this unfairly targets the poor. Given that obvious lack of options in such scenarios
But I mean, I just don’t see this as authoritarian, I’m sorry. It’s just a required safety net that sometimes citizens need.
But I would agree that it’s perhaps far better for a doctor to make that call. Though given the US costs of medicine, that’s perhaps unfeasible. So this is just NY working with what it can, as far as I can tell

 

[Father Heathen]

Clearly you did not read the details:

What a surprise.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Clearly you did not read the details:

First, we have issued a new directive to our Department of Health and Mental Hygiene mobile crisis teams, FDNY-EMS, and the NYPD. This directive lays out an expedited, step-by-step process for involuntarily transporting a person experiencing a mental health crisis to a hospital for evaluation. Mayor Adams Announces Plan to Provide Care for Individuals Suffering From Untreated Severe Mental Il

It doesn't change the fact people are being carted off the streets against their will.

Sane people act crazy all the time. What's the determination used to justify arresting someone?

People in NYC act nuts all the time. Does that justify detention and imprisonment alone?

 

[Twilight Hue]

Whilst I certainly sympathise with such a view (given the reputation of US police officers right now) often they are the first responders to dangerous scenarios. As such they are required by their job to make medical split second decisions by default.
And like it or not, that includes instances where a person is so mentally ill, they need to be, for lack of a better phrase, locked up for their own good.
A first responder needs to be able to make that call. If it’s the wrong call, then sure, the person should absolutely have the right to challenge that in a court of law and ideally that should not be at cost to them. Though in the US going to get a doctors note costs you guys more than it does me, so again I can sympathise with the view that this unfairly targets the poor. Given that obvious lack of options in such scenarios
But I mean, I just don’t see this as authoritarian, I’m sorry. It’s just a required safety net that sometimes citizens need.
But I would agree that it’s perhaps far better for a doctor to make that call. Though given the US costs of medicine, that’s perhaps unfeasible. So this is just NY working with what it can, as far as I can tell

The only ones legally that can declare a person mentally unfit are doctors and judges.

That should stay the way it is right now. Not expanding government power to others without declaration by the aforementioned and enable people to be just dragged off the street by those who are not judges or doctors.

That's not a free society.

 

[SomeRandom]

The only ones legally that can declare a person mentally unfit are doctors and judges.

That should stay the way it is right now. Not expanding government power to others without declaration by the aforementioned.

Why? Doctors cost people heaps of money in the US, no? You guys have to pay like at least 3 times as much for a doctors visit than I do on any given day. Even without bulk billing, I likely spend less to go to see my GP!
You know how much I paid to my GP the last time I got a Doctor’s certificate for work? 0$
And I don’t have private health insurance at all.
How much would that cost a poor person in the US or rather NY specifically? Honestly answer me
Never mind paying the referral to a mental health professional I’m sure would be the case for such scenarios as mentioned in the OP
Police cost nothing to call in the US as far as I’m aware. Please correct me if I’m wrong?
So again, this seems to be NY trying to do what it can within its, quite frankly, abhorrent limitations

 

[Twilight Hue]

Why? Doctors cost people heaps of money in the US, no? You guys have to pay like at least 3 times as much for a doctors visit than I do on any given day. Even without bulk billing, I spend less to go to see my GP!
You know how much I paid to my GP the last time I got a Doctor’s certificate for work? 0$
And I don’t have private health insurance at all.
Police cost nothing to call in the US as far as I’m aware. Please correct me if I’m wrong?
So again, this seems to be NY trying to do what it can within its, quite frankly, abhorrent limitations

I thought NYC learned it's lesson when it comes to profiling people. Remember stop and frisk?

Now it's back profiling people it thinks are mentally ill. Stop and cart away now. Nothing changes with these people.

I feel for people like those with autism or have a mental impediment who are undoubtedly going to suffer the most from the authorities in this god forsaken state.

 

[SomeRandom]

I thought NYC learned it's lesson when it comes to profiling people. Remember stop and frisk?

Now it's profiling people it thinks are ill. Stop and cart away now.

I feel foe people like those with autism or have a mental impediment who are undoubtedly going to suffer the most from the authorities in this God forsaken state.

I have family that works in the mental health facility, to varying degrees. Trust me when I say, locking someone up, whilst it seems harsh, is honestly sometimes the best you can do for that person. For their own safety and that of those around them. I sincerely wish that wasn’t the case. Truly I do. But I have witnessed first hand scenarios where that is deemed to be the case and I think even the police would instantly know that to be the case when confronted. I assume this decision will come with mandatory extra training for said police in order for them to be able to recognise when such measures are required, otherwise your government is even more awful than I thought.

In any case, sometimes drastic actions have to be taken, if only to ensure personal and sometimes public safety.
If that is abused, certainly that should be taken before the court of law and that person should be monetarily compensated.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I have family that works in the mental health facility, to varying degrees. Trust me when I say, locking someone up, whilst it seems harsh, is honestly sometimes the best you can do for that person. For their own safety and that of those around them. I sincerely wish that wasn’t the case. Truly I do.
But sometimes drastic actions have to be taken, if only to ensure personal and sometimes public safety.

I dunno. Sacrifice freedom for health and safety, the same deserves neither.

Every decade it just gets more dystopian.

 

[sun rise]

It doesn't change the fact people are being carted off the streets against their will.

Sane people act crazy all the time. What's the determination used to justify arresting someone?

People in NYC act nuts all the time. Does that justify detention and imprisonment alone?

Taking someone in a crisis to a hospital for evaluation is not "arresting" them.

There has been a woman living on the streets near me who has pulled off most of her clothing, thrown stuff all around her & leaves it on the lawn/sidewalk when she moves on, ranted about God knows what and presumably craps on lawns.

It seems that kind of thing is perfectly OK with you.

 

[SomeRandom]

I dunno. Sacrifice freedom for health and safety, the same deserves neither.

Every decade it just gets more dystopian.

You American call us dystopian for having universal healthcare. Yet we outperform you on basic health outcomes every single year. Indeed I think we even outperform you on the basic outcomes for worker productivity since we have mandatory leave for sickness, mental health wellbeing, having kids and even just because we want to
Honestly, I’d rather live a long healthy life, despite my horrible choices in life that I’m curiously always perfectly free to make, than live in what the US deems as a “free society.”
Free to what? Die in debt for having the audacity to get cancer?
Again, to me this just seems like NY making a compromise to work within the confines it has to.

 

[sun rise]

Every decade it just gets more dystopian.

You don't know the history of mental hospitals. Many were closed during the 1970's with "community treatment" promised. A certain percentage of the homeless today are those who refused treatment and live on the streets.

We've been going back and forth on this for decades.