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Obama and the Republican Party

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
How the heck was this "rammed down our throat"?

This legislation passed through a democratic process. And Obama was elected again!
I believe her Blandness is referring to the passage of the bulll, err bill, as the single significant legislative act taken by the Obama Administration prior to the mid-term elections. It was voted on unanimously by all Democrats and also unanimously voted against by all Republicans. Then the Democrats lost control of the house. In effect, the billed WAS "rammed through", "so people could find out what is in it" because the Dems saw the writing on the wall.
 
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Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
I believe her Blandness is referring to the passage of the bulll, err bill, as the single significant legislative act taken by the Obama Administration prior to the mid-term elections. It was voted on unanimously by all Democrats and also unanimously voted against by all Republicans. Then the Democrats lost control of the house. In effect, the billed as rammed through, "so people could find out what is in it" because the Dems saw the writing on the wall.

This, of course, ignores the fact that this bill was debated about for at least a year prior. It's not like this was sprung upon the populace or Congress, which is what "rammed through" would denote.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
This, of course, ignores the fact that this bill was debated about for at least a year prior. It's not like this was sprung upon the populace or Congress, which is what "rammed through" would denote.
While politely ignoring the fact that the final bill was not available for perusal until very late in the game. I seem to remember that from the point of delivery of said "Frankensteinian" bill, landing on the floor, there was, what, less than a week to digest its 2500 pages? Hence Nancy Pelosi's infamous quote. (Reality is so annoying, ain't it?) Pity Hilary wasn't around to lament "What difference does it make?"
 
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esmith

Veteran Member
How the heck was this "rammed down our throat"?

This legislation passed through a democratic process. And Obama was elected again!

It passed through a democratic process that only one party representing less than the majority of the country approved of by an election based on a high school popularity contest fostered by a media source that was biased.
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
It passed through a democratic process that only one party representing less than the majority of the country approved of by an election based on a high school popularity contest fostered by a media source that was biased.

Funny how Obama got re-elected by such a large margin, if it truly was "less than a majority" of the country. (This also ignores the reality that this was the conservative plan to healthcare, and the only-- THE ONLY-- reason why conservatives were opposed to it was based upon the Great Obama Witch Hunt, rather than actual policy disagreement.)

But speaking of representing "less than a majority" of the country, Republicans killed the background checks bill, even though it was overwhelmingly supported by the country. They also went through with the shut down, even though a majority of the country opposed doing so, including many within their own party.
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
While politely ignoring the fact that the final bill was not available for perusal until very late in the game. I seem to remember that from the point of delivery of said "Frankensteinian" bill, landing on the floor, there was, what, less than a week to digest its 2500 pages? Hence Nancy Pelosi's infamous quote. (Reality is so annoying, ain't it?) Pity Hilary wasn't around to lament "What difference does it make?"

I suspect this is usual for the vast majority of bills. The are tweaked, amended, and changed up to the final hour before they are voted upon. That's how our government works. I don't think it is how it should work, however, to pretend as if the ACA was special in this regard is a bit disingenuous.
 

esmith

Veteran Member
Funny how Obama got re-elected by such a large margin, if it truly was "less than a majority" of the country. (This also ignores the reality that this was the conservative plan to healthcare, and the only-- THE ONLY-- reason why conservatives were opposed to it was based upon the Great Obama Witch Hunt, rather than actual policy disagreement.)
According to SOURCE there were approx 221million eligible voters in 2012. Obama got 60 million of these votes, that means that he received approx 28% of the eligible voters DATA. You call this a majority????

But speaking of representing "less than a majority" of the country, Republicans killed the background checks bill, even though it was overwhelmingly supported by the country. They also went through with the shut down, even though a majority of the country opposed doing so, including many within their own party.

Sometimes you have to standup for what you think is right. As far as I am concerned my Senators and Representative did what the people of my state wanted.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
Obama got 60 million of these votes, that means that he received approx 28% of the eligible voters DATA. You call this a majority????

Yes, and what percentage of eligible voters did the other guy get? :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

I'm not sure how relevant this is in the first place. The number of eligible voters is going to be much lower than the number of people who actually vote, so the low percentage for the number of votes that Obama *actually received* isn't measured against the number of people who *actually voted,* but measured against the entire pool -- with no indication of how the other candidate did.

FOX News much?
 

esmith

Veteran Member
Yes, and what percentage of eligible voters did the other guy get? :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

I'm not sure how relevant this is in the first place. The number of eligible voters is going to be much lower than the number of people who actually vote, so the low percentage for the number of votes that Obama *actually received* isn't measured against the number of people who *actually voted,* but measured against the entire pool -- with no indication of how the other candidate did.

FOX News much?
Well let me put it this way Falvlum said " truly was "less than a majority" of the country" and all I did was prove that he did not get a majority of the country. And yes I find Fox NEWS programing far superior to the three major networks, CNN, and MSNBC, So your point is?
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
Well let me put it this way Falvlum said " truly was "less than a majority" of the country" and all I did was prove that he did not get a majority of the country. And yes I find Fox NEWS programing far superior to the three major networks, CNN, and MSNBC, So your point is?

*sigh*
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
According to SOURCE there were approx 221million eligible voters in 2012. Obama got 60 million of these votes, that means that he received approx 28% of the eligible voters DATA. You call this a majority????
It's a majority of voters. The majority of people who voted rejected Mitt Romney and chose Obama.

You can't tell anything about the ones who didn't vote-- they could have been pro ACA or con ACA-- except that they apparently didn't care that much one way or the other.

Sometimes you have to standup for what you think is right. As far as I am concerned my Senators and Representative did what the people of my state wanted.
So, in other words, it's not about the will of the majority. You don't care about what the "country" wants, so why are you pretending like it matters to you that the "country" didn't want the ACA?
 

esmith

Veteran Member
It's a majority of voters. The majority of people who voted rejected Mitt Romney and chose Obama.

You can't tell anything about the ones who didn't vote-- they could have been pro ACA or con ACA-- except that they apparently didn't care that much one way or the other.
It really doesn't matter about opinions. It is that there were many that saw both candidates lacking and therefore did not vote. I voted, but the candidate, as far as I was concerned, was not who I would have liked to seen run.

So, in other words, it's not about the will of the majority. You don't care about what the "country" wants, so why are you pretending like it matters to you that the "country" didn't want the ACA?
If you are talking about the background check, then I am with the majority of the people within my state. The people that we send to Congress should and do represent the majority of ideals within the state. What other congressional members do is or should be what their constitutes want. If they go against the voters then it is up to the voters to replace them. I am sure that those that voted in the "gun" debate did what their constitutes wanted them to do. If not, then they will be replaced.
 

BlandOatmeal

Active Member
The real reason the fed needn't stick to a budget is that they can print money into existence. Of course, it can only do this to the extent that people will accept a certain level of inflation due to currency devaluation. (Inflation also devalues federal debt.) This is why they must also raise taxes & continuing borrowing overseas. But they confuse this increase of money being shuffled around with increasing economic activity. The former is a poor measure of the latter.
Example:
Uncle Sam took $10 from Sally. Uncle Sam gave Burford (who is on the dole) the $10.
There was no economic activity, but left leaning economists might trumpet that there was a $140 increase in the economy. ($10 + $10 = $20. Then there is a fiscal multiplication factor of 7 (heard it on NPR) for all the commerce resulting from taking & giving away Sally's $10.) This is why we should pay much higher taxes....cuz the economy would boom.

I've always wondered why there's no fiscal multiplier for Sally spending her own $10. The money truly blossoms only when people spend money given them by government. Modern economic theory is so sophisticated, that economists have proven that sometimes 10=10, & sometimes 10=140.
Revolting,

First of all, thank you for your comment. Indeed, the Fed can print "funny money", and no other government can in the US. There are actually local currencies in circulation, such as "Berkshares", which are privately printed, so what you said isn't entirely correct; but I'll go along with your drift.

That said, "printing money" (actually, just digital transfers to banks from the taxpayers) does not create wealth: The amount of goods and services in the country is still the same as before the "funny money" was put into circulation. With more dollars chasing the same value of goods and services, the prices of those goods and services are therefore inflated, and the value of the dollar relative to the real wealth it represents goes down: and it doesn't just go down arithmetically, in proportion to the "quantitative easing" (the modern euphemism for "printing money"); it goes down exponentially; because that "new money" is given to banks to increase their reserves.

Say a bank needs to keep 10% of its outstanding loans in reserve, so it can pay its own creditors when they demand payment. If a bank holds $100,000, then, it can lend out $1,000,000. Add another $100,000 to that bank's reserves through "quantitative easing", and the bank can now lend out $2,000,000 -- $2,000,000 that the bank never had in the first place, but which it will receive back when the loan is repaid -- with interest. It therefore is making money, literally, out of thin air; unless the borrowers have to default, and the bank is stuck with toxic assets. If that happens, we taxpayers simply reimburse them for their loss with bailouts.

Indeed, the Federal government does not behave like us mere mortal taxpayers. That doesn't mean it shouldn't. If it DID behave like responsible citizens have to, we wouldn't be victims of this Frankenstein economy.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
According to SOURCE there were approx 221million eligible voters in 2012. Obama got 60 million of these votes, that means that he received approx 28% of the eligible voters DATA. You call this a majority????



Sometimes you have to standup for what you think is right. As far as I am concerned my Senators and Representative did what the people of my state wanted.
If you want to go by those standards, then Obama has gotten more of a vote from eligible voters than candidates in the past. It's a fact that really hardly anyone actually does vote (in the overall picture, we have a pathetic (absolutely pathetic) voter turnout). Any president wins by a small representation of the sample of registered voters that actually show up to vote. At 60 million votes, that means only about 20% of the entire American population (at 313.9 million) actually did vote for Obama.
2012 Voter Turnout | Bipartisan Policy Center
Voter turnout dipped from 62.3 percent of eligible citizens voting in 2008 to an estimated 57.5 in 2012. That figure was also below the 60.4 level of the 2004 election but higher than the 54.2 percent turnout in the 2000 election.
Despite an increase of over eight million citizens in the eligible population, turnout declined from 131 million voters in 2008 to an estimated 126 million voters in 2012 when all ballots are tallied. Some 93 million eligible citizens did not vote.

The people as a whole didn't put Obama back in office, but they had their chance. Many of them simply forfeited their right, and surrendered it to those who chose to practice their right to vote. If your anger deserves placement on anyone, it isn't the few more handful of voters Obama has, it should be on the nation that, as a whole, largely does not vote.
 
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Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Say a bank needs to keep 10% of its outstanding loans in reserve, so it can pay its own creditors when they demand payment. If a bank holds $100,000, then, it can lend out $1,000,000. Add another $100,000 to that bank's reserves through "quantitative easing", and the bank can now lend out $2,000,000 -- $2,000,000 that the bank never had in the first place, but which it will receive back when the loan is repaid -- with interest. It therefore is making money, literally, out of thin air; unless the borrowers have to default, and the bank is stuck with toxic assets. If that happens, we taxpayers simply reimburse them for their loss with bailouts.
This is a common misconception. (Have you been talking to socialists?)
If a bank has $10M on deposit, then it can lend only some fraction of $10M.
If the reserve requirement is 10%, then it must keep $1M on hand, & can lend out $9M.
The upshot: Only the fed can lend out money they don't have....even digital money.
 
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Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Not surprising since the nation was in recession and Obama promised to sock it to the wealthy and give handouts to the poor.
Class warfare at its finest!
Actually, during his first election he worked hard to bring youths and minorities to the polls, and it paid off with a much higher than usual voter turnout.
But if you want to dismiss college students trying to get started in their life, homosexuals and transgenders fighting for equality, and racial minorities who have to face they fact they live in a white-man's world as class warfare, then consider me a war criminal. His outreach worked so well that the GLBT community went largely oblivious to the fact it just so conveniently happened to be an election year he came out in support of gay marriage.
And of course the Dem's pro-union and Rep's anti-union stance also gave some states to Obama on a silver plate. Romney said he didn't support the auto-bail out, and some states like Ohio that heavily depend on the auto industry voted for Obama who ended up making a very good call in bailing out the auto industry.
 

maninthewilderness

optimistic skeptic
Actually, during his first election he worked hard to bring youths and minorities to the polls, and it paid off with a much higher than usual voter turnout.
But if you want to dismiss college students trying to get started in their life, homosexuals and transgenders fighting for equality, and racial minorities who have to face they fact they live in a white-man's world as class warfare, then consider me a war criminal. His outreach worked so well that the GLBT community went largely oblivious to the fact it just so conveniently happened to be an election year he came out in support of gay marriage.
And of course the Dem's pro-union and Rep's anti-union stance also gave some states to Obama on a silver plate. Romney said he didn't support the auto-bail out, and some states like Ohio that heavily depend on the auto industry voted for Obama who ended up making a very good call in bailing out the auto industry.
No, students and gays and minorities and unions have been voting democrat for over 40 years. So there was no gain for the democrats and no loss for the republicans there.
And studies have shown that the youth turnout was really not much different than in previous elections anyway.

No, what made the real difference were white independents who swung over to support Obama.
Why they did so was for various reasons....
Some were against the war in Iraq and thought that Obama was a dove (suckers!).
Some were against McCain and Palin because they thought he was too old and she was too dumb.
Some wanted to punish the republicans for the Wall Street bailout.
And some wanted "free healthcare"....another government handout.
And some were just racist and voted for Obama only because of his skin color.
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
You may be right; but I will reject ANY healthcare act or ANY legislation that results from an imperial President ramming it down the throat of the taxpayers. We pay for that man to play golf, for heaven's sake, and to ridicule us as a big "farce". I'm flat-out sick of him, and have no sympathy for him OR his political pyramids and hanging gardens. He wants to make a name for himself; but he will go down in ridicule. We HAD a health care system -- not the best in the world, perhaps, but certainly ONE of the best. What's being proposed is some hare-brained scheme that was voted on before the legislators even had a chance to read it, and appears to have 5:1 cost overruns before it's even gotten off the ground.

It doesn't work. Shut it down, and fix it.

So if its done by Obama then you'll reject it even if its a good idea?
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Revoltingest said:
This is a common misconception. (Have you been talking to socialists?)
If a bank has $10M on deposit, then it can lend only some fraction of $10M.
If the reserve requirement is 10%, then it must keep $1M on hand, & can lend out $9M.
The upshot: Only the fed can lend out money they don't have....even digital money.
True though the banking system can still multiply it. That 90% can go back almost immediately into the bank as the borrowers spend it, because then somebody else could put it into savings or checking. Then out of that 90% put back into the bank, 90% of that 90% (81% of the original amount) can be lent out again. That goes on indefinitely. So effectively now the banking system using the original 1M has lent out 90% + .9 x 90% = 171% just with two levels of borrowing and lending. In the end after 10 levels of lending the banking system, even without the Fed involved, effectively multiplies the amount of money available in the economy without printing by maybe two or three times the original amount in its vault, reserves, holdings etc.
 
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