Ohio Governor's Transgender Decision

[icehorse]

Why do you assume all gender affirming care must involve drugs and surgeries?

I don't assume that. But it sometimes does, and when it comes to kids, that's where my criticisms lie.

As for the Debi Jackson story, in science those are called personal anecdotes. Taken individually they should not be used to establish broad protocols, correct?

So my main concern is this: We should not be giving drugs or surgeries to kids with GD. The drugs are NOT safe OR reversible as the trans activists would have you believe. And further, their efficacy is dubious - it has NOT been proven that drugs or surgeries are any more effective than talk therapy.

Once you're 21, do what you want.

 

[libre]

The drugs are NOT safe

Which drugs are you alleging are not safe?

 

[icehorse]

Which drugs are you alleging are not safe?

The puberty blockers and hormones they use in the GAC protocols. Again, I have provided links in earlier threads.

 

[libre]

As for my expertise - that's why I've provided so many links to experts

I do not mean to cause disrespect, because I do enjoy your participation in many subjects I've seen on this forum and I can appreciate that you're willing to provide your sources.

My concern here is not that you think you are an expert - it's that you seem to think you are qualified to have an informed opinion as to whether or not the established standards are good or bad based on your own personal opinions of independent medical practitioners who speak out against them based on whether they are supported or opposed by 'trans activists'.

Scientific consensus is important, we don't get to pick and choose as outsiders of of the medical field.

 

[icehorse]

I do not mean to cause disrespect, because I do enjoy your participation in many subjects I've seen on this forum and I can appreciate that you're willing to provide your sources.

My concern here is not that you think you are an expert - it's that you seem to think you are qualified to have an informed opinion as to whether or not the established standards are good or bad based on your own personal opinions of independent medical practitioners who speak out against them based on whether they are supported or opposed by 'trans activists'.

Scientific consensus is important, we don't get to pick and choose as outsiders of of the medical field.

Well trans activists end not to be medical experts. So I think it's important for us all to understand that a highly influencial group like WPATH is comprised mostly of activists and not so much of doctors. We ought to understand the source of these protocols, no?

Zooming out, we talk about consequential topics all the time on this forum. I can't recall the last time I heard someone say something like "who are you to opine on economic systems?". But trans medicine has become HIGHLY politicized correct? To me that means we need to be extra concerned about whether this medicine is based on sound science or not.

Zooming out in a different direction, have ought to remember disasters like the opioid crisis before we lambast posters for questioning medical authority. Notice that I haven't proposed anything that isn't already standard in some parts of the world.

 

[libre]

So I think it's important for us all to understand that a highly influencial group like WPATH is comprised mostly of activists and not so much of doctors.

This is a silly claim that doesn't check out.

Board of directors appears to be all accredited MDs or Psychologists except the student representative and the secretary. EC-BOD - WPATH World Professional Association for Transgender Health

If you look at the standards of care contributors published on the WPATH website they are overwhelmingly doctors and psychologists.

 

[libre]

But trans medicine has become HIGHLY politicized correct?

Yes, by people who oppose access to trans healthcare and not by 'trans activists' fighting for their own right to healthcare.
I'm arguing to stop politicizing it and let the scientists determine the standards of care.

 

[icehorse]

This is a silly claim that doesn't check out.

Board of directors appears to be all accredited MDs or Psychologists except the student representative and the secretary. EC-BOD - WPATH World Professional Association for Transgender Health

If you look at the standards of care contributors published on the WPATH website they are overwhelmingly doctors and psychologists.

I would suggest that you do an internet search on the phrase:

wpath activists

Look a little deeper than the main page, and assume they're smart.

 

[libre]

I would suggest that you do an internet search on the phrase:

wpath activists

Look a little deeper than the main page, and assume they're smart.

I just read through their 29 page standards of care 8 list of contributors.

On the subject of Hormone therapy for adolescents and adults, every single contributor is a medical doctor.

I'm not seeing the damning information you're gesturing at on Google.

 

[icehorse]

I just read through their 29 page standards of care 8 list of contributors.

On the subject of Hormone therapy for adolescents and adults, every single contributor is a medical doctor.

I'm not seeing the damning information you're gesturing at on Google.

Start here. And this is just a start. And remember, this article is making a series of FACTUAL CLAIMS:

What’s wrong with WPATH version 8? - Sex Matters

 

[libre]

Start here. And this is just a start. And remember, this article is making a series of FACTUAL CLAIMS:

What’s wrong with WPATH version 8? - Sex Matters

Interestingly enough, the 'Sex Matters' organization you've linked doesn't appear to have any doctors at all on their board of directors, just 'gender-critical' activists.

Susie Green is indeed a SOC 8 contributor for the criteria of Assessment, Support and Therapeutic Approaches of Children. This is because she is the CEO of a leading organization that provides support for trans children in the UK. The other contributors in this category are 6 psychologists and 1 medical doctor. So this category is also not proof of your claim that they are 'comprised mostly' of trans activists.

The WPATH contributors are overwhelmingly medical professionals if you actually go through the list.
This article lists objections to the WPATH standards but don't really do anything to contest the fact that WPATH is an organization of medical professionals.

 

[metis]

This is a silly claim that doesn't check out.

Board of directors appears to be all accredited MDs or Psychologists except the student representative and the secretary. EC-BOD - WPATH World Professional Association for Transgender Health

If you look at the standards of care contributors published on the WPATH website they are overwhelmingly doctors and psychologists.

Good points, and here's the analysis of puberty blockers from the Mayo Clinic, including the pros & cons. Puberty blockers for transgender and gender-diverse youth

IOW, as you well know, overall, they're safe, and what also has to be considered is the price of doing nothing to help teens locked in a body that doesn't properly reflect their hormone levels that has led to way too many suicides and attempted suicides.

 

[icehorse]

The 10 points listed are highly sensationalized objections that don't really do anything to contest the fact that WPATH is an organization of medical professionals.

How are direct quotes from the standards of care document WPATH created "sensationalized"? It seems pretty clear that document was heavily influenced by activists, unbiased doctors don't talk like that.

 

[icehorse]

Good points, and here's the analysis of puberty blockers from the Mayo Clinic, including the pros & cons. Puberty blockers for transgender and gender-diverse youth

IOW, as you well know, overall, they're safe, and what also has to be considered is the price of doing nothing to help teens locked in a body that doesn't properly reflect their hormone levels that has led to way too many suicides and attempted suicides.

And again, you have ZERO EVIDENCE that puberty blockers improve GD kids' mental health, BECAUSE you haven't compared the results to GD kids who did not get these drugs.

 

[libre]

How are direct quotes from the standards of care document WPATH created "sensationalized"?

It's the analysis that's sensationalized.
Presenting a single CEO of an LGBTQ charity as though it compromises the doctors that outnumber her 7 to 1 for the subject matter she contributed to is very silly. Further, she did not create any standards of conduct for diagnosis or providing GAC drug/hormone treatments, so it's entirely unrelated to the treatments that the opinion piece you've provided are trying to make us concerned about.

Additionally she had ZERO involvement with the standards of care on the subject of Hormone therapy for adolescents and adults.
Every single contributor in that category is a medical doctor.

It seems pretty clear that document was heavily influenced by activists, unbiased doctors don't talk like that.

Do you have any meaningful evidence that they were somehow 'influenced' by activists in a compromising way, or is that just the conclusion you jump to because they use language that you personally disagree with?

 

[metis]

And again, you have ZERO EVIDENCE that puberty blockers improve GD kids' mental health, BECAUSE you haven't compared the results to GD kids who did not get these drugs.

You v the Mayo Clinic : I'm going with the latter as that's a reputable medical-science source.

 

[icehorse]

It's the analysis that's sensationalized.
Presenting a single CEO of an LGBTQ charity as though it compromises the doctors that outnumber her 7 to 1 for the subject matter she contributed to is very silly. Further, she did not create any standards of conduct for diagnosis or providing GAC drug/hormone treatments, so it's entirely unrelated to the treatments that the opinion piece you've provided are trying to make us concerned about.

Additionally she had ZERO involvement with the standards of care on the subject of Hormone therapy for adolescents and adults.
Every single contributor in that category is a medical doctor.


Do you have any meaningful evidence that they were somehow 'influenced' by activists in a compromising way, or is that just the conclusion you jump to because they use language that you personally disagree with?

It's not my personal disagreement. It's not scientific, medical language.

 

[icehorse]

You v the Mayo Clinic : I'm going with the latter as that's a reputable medical-science source.

You and @libre are funny

You're both trying to make it about MY opinions. These are not MY opinions, they're the opinions of many doctors in many countries in Europe.

So it's really more like Mayo vs. Europe.

 

[metis]

You and @libre are funny

You're both trying to make it about MY opinions. These are not MY opinions, they're the opinions of many doctors in many countries in Europe.

So it's really more like Mayo vs. Europe.

Those are the decisions that the various European countries will have to make for themselves. But let me post this from The Atlantic:
But in Finland, Sweden, France, Norway, and the U.K., scientists and public-health officials are warning that, for some young people, these interventions may do more harm than good... -- A Teen Gender-Care Debate Is Spreading Across Europe

Notice the word "some", which may well be the case.

 

[icehorse]

Those are the decisions that the various European countries will have to make for themselves. But let me post this from The Atlantic:
But in Finland, Sweden, France, Norway, and the U.K., scientists and public-health officials are warning that, for some young people, these interventions may do more harm than good... -- A Teen Gender-Care Debate Is Spreading Across Europe

Notice the word "some", which may well be the case.

More to the point, there is no good data to support that these interventions have any efficacy. And we know that drugs and surgeries cause harm.