Oklahoma schools in revolt over Bible mandate

[Pogo]

The question is: Will One be dived by itself and the two becoming as one, and to be divided again through itself as one (again) or will it revert back to 0 and none?

Freedom of religion

And for those who don't have one, Freedom from Religion in the areas we coexist.
It is a simple concept, your rights end where my body begins.

Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr. is credited with saying this quote. The idea that “my freedom ends where yours begins” is a fundamental principle that's central to a just and harmonious society. It means that people have the right to exercise their freedoms, but those freedoms shouldn't infringe on the rights of others.

We learned this back in school without benefit of any religious texts.

• 
  

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Do you suppose that when the constitution was written that they thought for a single moment that the were giving equality of religion to the Moslems or the African religion of their slaves, it did not enter their tiny minds.

The Founders of this nation explicitly included Islam in their vision of the future of the republic. Freedom of religion, as they conceived it, encompassed it. Adherents of the faith were, with some exceptions, regarded as men and women who would make law-abiding, productive citizens. Far from fearing Islam, the Founders would have incorporated it into the fabric of American life.

There is, in the Library of Congress, a letter written by George Washington in 1785, wherein he declared that he would welcome "Mohometans" to Mount Vernon if they were "good workmen."

So, um, yes -- their "tiny minds" did encompass that much freedom of religion.

From my readings in the long fight for liberty, in fact, it is rather my impression that it was from tiny minds trammeled with religious superstition that liberty had to be wrested.

 

[Revoltingest]

The biggest problem with teaching about religions
is always presenting them as positive. Cover the
negatives, eg, war, slavery, oppression, & I might
get on board.
Failing that, keep religion out of schools entirely.

 

[Balthazzar]

And for those who don't have one, Freedom from Religion in the areas we coexist.
It is a simple concept, your rights end where my body begins.

Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr. is credited with saying this quote. The idea that “my freedom ends where yours begins” is a fundamental principle that's central to a just and harmonious society. It means that people have the right to exercise their freedoms, but those freedoms shouldn't infringe on the rights of others.

We learned this back in school without benefit of any religious texts.

• 
  

You're suggesting that the existence of religion of various kinds, which have been a historic reality of life since the nomads utilized them as an organized vehicle to create more orderly communities, 1000,s of years ago, is an infringement of your rights not to be subjected to their presence in your non-religious one.

Your body would then be of the secular variant, new and free of old world history and present-day realities, with an aim to become the "new" standard for all life on earth, where my rights end as a theist and the new body begins, solely secular.

The cage, the snuff attempt, and the pushing back for Liberte'.

 

[oldbadger]

People need to learn the energy saving
virtues of compound engines.

If the water can be heated cleanly, then 'yes'.

 

[Pogo]

People need to learn the energy saving
virtues of compound engines.

And while I am digressing.

 

[Revoltingest]

And while I am digressing.

New rules sound good to me.
But I find such racing boring.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

You're suggesting that the existence of religion of various kinds, which have been a historic reality of life since the nomads utilized them as an organized vehicle to create more orderly communities, 1000,s of years ago, is an infringement of your rights not to be subjected to their presence in your non-religious one.

No, he is not. He is suggesting that you are welcome to your own religious views, just so long as you do not think you have the right to include him in them. He's also stating that he retains his right to have no religious beliefs, and is perfectly happy not to include you.

Your body would then be of the secular variant, new and free of old world history and present-day realities, with an aim to become the "new" standard for all life on earth, where my rights end as a theist and the new body begins, solely secular.

The cage, the snuff attempt, and the pushing back for Liberte'.

Remembering history is not a cage -- it's the key that opens it. You are freer when you abandon the need to push beliefs on others, because that need binds you.

 

[Altfish]

You're suggesting that the existence of religion of various kinds, which have been a historic reality of life since the nomads utilized them as an organized vehicle to create more orderly communities, 1000,s of years ago, is an infringement of your rights not to be subjected to their presence in your non-religious one.

Your body would then be of the secular variant, new and free of old world history and present-day realities, with an aim to become the "new" standard for all life on earth, where my rights end as a theist and the new body begins, solely secular.

The cage, the snuff attempt, and the pushing back for Liberte'.

I'm an atheist, I live in the UK, we are almost as bad as the USoA as we have a state religion, our King is the head of it. Bonkers, I know.
The UK is predominantly atheist, with church attendance dropping.
Yes, religion should be taught in schools but not preached, children should not have to say prayers.

 

[Pogo]

You're suggesting that the existence of religion of various kinds, which have been a historic reality of life since the nomads utilized them as an organized vehicle to create more orderly communities, 1000,s of years ago, is an infringement of your rights not to be subjected to their presence in your non-religious one.

Your body would then be of the secular variant, new and free of old world history and present-day realities, with an aim to become the "new" standard for all life on earth, where my rights end as a theist and the new body begins, solely secular.

The cage, the snuff attempt, and the pushing back for Liberte'.

The US is a secular government and country, that is what Liberty for all means.
You apparently didn't learn this in your Bible Belt schooling which is what ultimately made your 1980 Stone vs Graham necessary. That religions have existed for thousands of years is not in question and that governments and public spaces have been controlled by them is also not in question. The US however is an exception to that historical pattern and designedly so.

Call it a great experiment if you want to, but that is what this country is founded on even if it only came to be recognized in its violation much later in some areas.

 

[Balthazzar]

No, he is not. He is suggesting that you are welcome to your own religious views, just so long as you do not think you have the right to include him in them. He's also stating that he retains his right to have no religious beliefs, and is perfectly happy not to include you.

Remembering history is not a cage -- it's the key that opens it. You are freer when you abandon the need to push beliefs on others, because that need binds you.

I stated that which was presumed in the text provided. The reality is lots of people don't like religion, so religion has been caged to some extent. Then there's an effort to decrease, invalidate, and demean those who belong to the households of faith, and the evident stance is anti-theism, as opposed to atheism. So, the effect is the religious communities opening their voice in protest and pleas, sometimes grasping for breath in this struggle to remain part of earths dynamics.

This isn't a Christian issue alone, it's global one that pertains to all religions.

 

[Pogo]

New rules sound good to me.
But I find such racing boring.

Well this would be fun, a 30 k drag race, especially if I got to ride.

What did you have in mind?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I stated that which was presumed in the text provided. The reality is lots of people don't like religion, so religion has been caged to some extent. Then there's an effort to decrease, invalidate, and demean those who belong to the households of faith, and the evident stance is anti-theism, as opposed to atheism. So, the effect is the religious communities opening their voice in protest and pleas, sometimes grasping for breath in this struggle to remain part of earths dynamics.

This isn't a Christian issue alone, it's global one that pertains to all religions.

This is a lot less true than you suppose. I am one of those who don't like religion, but I keep my nose out of it altogether, except when tacitly invited to address it here. You are perfectly welcome to go to whatever church or temple you like, to pray as you will -- but you must not invoke any right to include me in your religious rules. I happen to be gay, and a lot of Christians and Muslims don't like that, because they suppose that their god told them not to. Too bad, I say. It's what I am, and no religious person has any right to try and deny me every human right available to others. And yet, they will try. They'll try banning books, and demonstrations, and my right to marry who I will. That is not remaining "part of earth's dynamics," it is trying to control them -- to the detriment of others.

And that is not a Christian issue alone, either.

 

[Pogo]

I'm an atheist, I live in the UK, we are almost as bad as the USoA as we have a state religion, our King is the head of it. Bonkers, I know.
The UK is predominantly atheist, with church attendance dropping.
Yes, religion should be taught in schools but not preached, children should not have to say prayers.

And you are predominantly atheist because you have RE religious education in schools where all of these religions and their histories and effects on culture are taught AIUI. I would more than welcome such a program of RE in this country and @Balthazzar should welcome it too, though it may not be quite what he had in mind.

 

[Copernicus]

I'm looking at it from the perspective of world government, from past to present, and how these affect today's cultures with a more secular aim and intent. There's no question that religion has played major roles in all the territories of the world, Christianity and Catholicism being the most dominate in our own, having greater influence than the many others. I don't know what is to be taught, how it is to be articulated, or the exact nature of the inclusion, but I presume is has academic merit, otherwise I don't see how we could ever get away with it in this nation after the last 40 plus years of political turmoil to have anything of its kind removed.

Look, Bibles are not banned in public schools. This is about mandating them in the curriculum. In 1963, SCOTUS ruled that mandatory Bible reading was unconstitutional because of its violation of the constitutional ban on religious establishment. I got my instruction on the Bible in Sunday school, and that was a choice imposed on me by my parents, not the government. The historical influence of religions on civilization can and should be taught in the schools, but no child should be instructed by a public school in what they ought to believe. They also need to learn why the First Amendment bans an establishment of religion by federal, state, and local authorities in the United States. That's our true history. Sadly, it isn't taught enough these days because of all the political struggles to control young minds. Schools should teach critical thinking skills, not religious doctrine.

As I stated, I'm anticipating an interesting story.

We all are, just not the one with the outcome you want the story to have.

 

[MelancholicPotatoChip]

Bless your heart.

 

[Pogo]

You're suggesting that the existence of religion of various kinds, which have been a historic reality of life since the nomads utilized them as an organized vehicle to create more orderly communities, 1000,s of years ago, is an infringement of your rights not to be subjected to their presence in your non-religious one.

Your body would then be of the secular variant, new and free of old world history and present-day realities, with an aim to become the "new" standard for all life on earth, where my rights end as a theist and the new body begins, solely secular.

The cage, the snuff attempt, and the pushing back for Liberte'.

No we are simply saying that when we walk into the Department of Social Services that I don't want to have to sign up for the five pillars of Islam in order for them to serve me any more than I want to recite the Ten Commandments, (which ever version is the local majority) If I go into the local Mosque then I expect to abide by their rules. All of these differences and ideas are what is taught in good schools. This is not about denying you your right to worship and even behave in a public space as you please, but it is saying that in places like the DSS, we are secular.
You seem either to have missed this common lesson or been taught falsely.

 

[anna.]

Civics, citizenship, status, we the people, sociology, government, psychology, activism, freedom of speech, grievances and petitions to bills and laws, court rulings, etc. and how we as citizens process or comprehend the true nature of the decisions made by our courts and how we the people influence those decisions, these seem more apt to be the purpose than just the shuffling of tax payer money into particular pockets, but sure ...money is very likely part of the dynamic, also.

A Bible isn't necessary for any of those. Original texts from the Constitution, Declaration of Independence, etc. and textbooks putting them into context historically and culturally are, and have been, enough.

That the Trump Bible presses together secular documents with sacred text shows how American Christians have always folded their religion into their politics. This is not a good thing. It wasn't then and it isn't now.

 

[Balthazzar]

And you are predominantly atheist because you have RE religious education in schools where all of these religions and their histories and effects on culture are taught AIUI. I would more than welcome such a program of RE in this country and @Balthazzar should welcome it too, though it may not be quite what he had in mind.

Honestly, I hope the bible is included. It could be very beneficial if implemented correctly, then becoming more inclusive for other religions. The numbers of attendees may drop in various religious institutions, but the general population will end up better equipped to self-govern as citizens and with a better understanding of our own society, it would increase more peaceful relations between us. The flip side is if we do this wrong it could prove detrimental, and hostilities could increase. Implementation is important, as would be conduct in how the students interact and involve themselves. I would vehemently oppose indoctrination attempts, and I would think to do so (attempt to indoctrinate) would be an abuse of the position granted to the faculty.

Like I stated, I'm in anticipation to witness how this unfolds over the next few months and years.

 

[Pogo]

This isn't a Christian issue alone, it's global one that pertains to all religions.

Which is exactly why the no religion in schools rule exists, to treat all religions and none equally, History and culture is another story and yes it can be taught better, but not by posting religious icons on the walls.