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On Evolution & Creation

icant

Member
If you like fairy tales, rather than reality.
It is not near about as farfetched of a fairy tale as your universe from non-existence and life from non-life.
Yeah, right, if you try really, really hard to ignore what it clearly says.
What part are you talking about?
Ballcocks.
You keep using that word do you need a ballcock to fill some tank with?

He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth,
and its people are like grasshoppers.
He stretches out the heavens like a canopy,

and spreads them out like a tent to live in.

He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth,
It does not say how far above the earth either.
Do you not believe the Earth is a circle at the equator?


You ever been up in a airplane and looked down at the earth?
At 35,000 feet everything could be said to look like grasshoppers because it is very small small.

He stretches out the heavens like a canopy,

and spreads them out like a tent to live in.
When you look up you don't see the canopy?
I really don't think Isaiah knew anything about a canopy 2700 years ago. But he did know about tents. Have you ever spent the night in a tent? If you did someone had to stretch it out. I don't know if they had floors in them back in those days but when I was in the military ours did and in any direction you looked you could see the tent. So what is wrong with Isaiah's description of the heavens being enlarged?

Except we don't know that it did, and everything about the actual description in Genesis 1 is plain wrong.
Sure we do know, because we have the CMBR as evidence.

Is nonsense.
So you don't believe that energy is transported through the blood to the cells that make up your body?
Are not in the Bible.

Still, gave me a laugh.

Laugh all you want even just like your little man it will not change the facts.
So you don't believe the earth has a circle at the equator.

And you don't believe the universe is stretching out either.
 

icant

Member
It tells you what you want to hear because you've chosen to do as such.

I'm not in any way downplaying the Bible as I read it almost every day as a book of faith, not science nor objective history. You seem to look at the Bible as faith, history, and science, whereas I look at it as a faith guide for moral living that over 1 billion people follow worldwide.

BTW, I attend mass every Sunday with my wife and even taught there to adults for years and also taught in a synagogue. Why would I waste my time if it meant nothing to me?
I thought the Bible was a pretty good science book.
It tell me things about creation that no scientist has ever dreamed about.

It tells me how I got here.
It tells me that I came into the universe from my mothers womb.

It tells me why I am here.
That I am here to make a decision of whether I want to spend eternity with God or not, and to serve Him bringing Him glory.

It tells me that I am going to live forever somewhere.
It tell me I am created in His image which means I am an eternal being and my spirit will live forever.

It has a lot of information about the universe, and mankind.
It tells me mankind is prone to evil things and must choose between good and evil. Some are a lot worse than others.

It tells me things that science has discovered in the past 100 years.
It tells me that the life of the flesh is in the blood. Scientific fact.
It tells me that a day lasts from sunrise to sunrise.
It tells me the universe had a beginning to exist. Although I believe it has eternally existed in some form. (Energy)
It tells me the universe is going to melt with fervent heat.

That is enough reasons but I could come up with a lot more, but nobody would want to hear them.

Enjoy,
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
I don't think there ever was a BB to begin with. I believe a book that I read in 1949 at 9 years of age, I believed it then and I haven't changed my mind since then.

Quote: Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning created God the Heavens and the Earth" That is the proper translation of the Hebrew as the verb is before the subject of the verb.

When was the beginning? No one knows. But I believe it was a very long time ago although is had only one period of light that ended when the dark period that is found at Genesis 1:2 began to exist as it was also created by God.

Enjoy,
Where did god come from, who created god?
 

Audie

Veteran Member
You may have missed a wonderful life.


I thought the Bible was a pretty good science book.
It tells me how I got here.
It tells me why I am here.
It tells me that I am going to live forever somewhere.
It has a lot of information about the universe, and mankind.
It tells me things that science has discovered in the past 100 years.

Our blood system is an amazing thing it transports oxygen, and energy to each cell in our body without which the cell would die.
3500 years ago it was recorded in the Bible...
Lev 17:11For the life of the flesh is in the blood:
How about that a scientific fact in the Bible. Notice the exact statement "the life of the flesh".

Our Universe is a marvelous invention.
The earth was said to be flat, by our learned men for many years until Magellan's crew sailed around the world.
The Bible tell us they could do that in Isaiah 40:22.
The same verse tell us the universe is expanding.
So how did these men know these things over 2700 years ago?

Fact #1 The universe had a beginning to exist. Genesis 1:1
Fact #2 The life of the flesh is in the blood.
Fact #3 The earth has a circle at the equator dividing the earth into two equal parts.
Fact #4 The universe is expanding.

Enjoy,


Lev 17:11For the life of the flesh is in the blood:
Poe's Law incarnadine!
 

icant

Member
Where did god come from, who created god?

Hi Altfish,

Since He is all Power, that would make Him all energy. He can everywhere at once
How do I know He can be everywhere at once because He has been at any place I have
ever been. He has taken care of all my needs for over 85 years. He has never failed me in all that time.
He is a better explanation for what exists than any assumption you might make.

I know Him personally as my Father.

Enjoy,
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
It is not near about as farfetched of a fairy tale as your universe from non-existence and life from non-life.
Nobody is suggesting existence from non-existence (you're still stuck in the 19th century view of time) and life from non-life happened somehow, we have the evidence for that.

What part are you talking about?
You gave great examples yourself. Like this:

He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth,
and its people are like grasshoppers.
He stretches out the heavens like a canopy,

and spreads them out like a tent to live in.
I quoted it myself because it quite clearly doesn't say what you claimed. To claim it says that the Earth is spherical or the universe is expanding is obviously reading things into it that simply aren't there.

It does not say how far above the earth either.
Do you not believe the Earth is a circle at the equator?
Desperation. :rolleyes:

When you look up you don't see the canopy?
That's what it looks like, it's not what it is.

Sure we do know, because we have the CMBR as evidence.
Make up your mind. You just spent ages saying that we don't know about T=0, and we don't. We don't know that the universe had a start, just that it was very hot and dense in the past.

So you don't believe that energy is transported through the blood to the cells that make up your body?
That's not what the passage says.

So you don't believe the earth has a circle at the equator.

And you don't believe the universe is stretching out either.
What's hilarious is that you think the bible says these things. The idea that you could read the bible and end up thinking the Earth was (roughly) spherical or that the entire universe is expanding is laughable.

When people thought the universe was basically static, I don't recall all the bible scholars telling everybody they were wrong, and it must actually be expanding, because of Isaiah 40:22. :laughing:
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Where did god come from, who created god?

Hi Altfish,

Since He is all Power, that would make Him all energy. He can everywhere at once
How do I know He can be everywhere at once because He has been at any place I have
ever been. He has taken care of all my needs for over 85 years. He has never failed me in all that time.
He is a better explanation for what exists than any assumption you might make.

I know Him personally as my Father.

Enjoy,
How to run away from a question. :rolleyes:
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
Hi Altfish,

Since He is all Power, that would make Him all energy. He can everywhere at once
How do I know He can be everywhere at once because He has been at any place I have
ever been. He has taken care of all my needs for over 85 years. He has never failed me in all that time.
He is a better explanation for what exists than any assumption you might make.

I know Him personally as my Father.

Enjoy,
That is called "special pleading" - in other words, I haven't a clue but my god doesn't have a beginning BUT you have to explain how your universe started.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
The BBT doesn't include a singularity. That is a popular misconception. You don't even know what you're criticising.


Gibberish.


So you don't understand entropy, let alone the complexity of applying it to the BB.


More ignorance.


BS.


You clearly don't know what a singularity is.


And you don't understand energy or its conservation.


And you don't understand space-time.


Off we go into complete fantasy and meaningless word salad.


lol.gif

I could go on, but I'm bored now.
As far as a singularity, if we apply Special Relativity, and you traveled at the speed of light, the modern universe would appear contracted to a singularity; point-instant. The universe didn't actually become a point-instant because you are in motion, but rather, this would appear as a relativistic reference illusion. An actual singularity does not contain velocity or Special Relativity; SR. but rather a singularity would be more a pure artifact of General Relativity; GR, based on mass at infinite density, with density defined as density=mass/(d=0+)3

If we had a purely mass based singularity expanding, since mass-density is spreading out, according to GR, space-time will expand. This creates relative motion between various components and relativity velocity. This will cause your space-time reference to see the universe appear to contracts, as it expands. Conceptually, the universe might appear to expand slower than it actually is. Our earth is a relative reference; SR, since we are part of the universal relative motion and not the center of the universe.

As far as entropy, the mistake made by many, is not realize that entropy is a state variable. Entropy is constant for any given state. S has nothing to do with statistics. The free energy term -TS can be modeled with statistics, but it is the T or temperature, that is based on the average of kinetic motion that defines the temperature. That is a problem created by physics, They call -TS, entropy. But S is constant for any given state and does not require statistical modeling.

If you take any system, with lots of components and interactions, the entropy will be a constant. If dig into the weeds, inside that state, there are a lot of things going on at the quantum level. However, as random those may be or appear to be, these always add to a constant entropy, for that state. When we measure entropy in the lab it is a reproducible constant. What I read in physics is word salad.

To model the primordial atom or singularity, it does not matter what is going at the quantum level, the sum of all that is going on, known or unknown. begins with a constant entropy. To increase entropy, we need free energy to be absorbed, due to free energy, G=H-TS. This can occur via H, with T=0; more hefty sub particles. We can build internal energy or enthalpy into the singularity, even at absolute zero. This is H=TS, with G=0. This is a new state of higher constant entropy. If we add heat or T, the free energy increase gives energy to -TS, and this can cause S to increase into a new state of constant entropy.

It is easier to deal with entropy S, since a wide range of unknown variables average out, even as they fluctuate. Not all states average out. Only certain quantum states are stable where S=constant.

This is useful for evolution. We see distinct species, but not much in the way of missing links. The distinct species are stable entropic states where the entire critter has S=constant, no matter the complexity of the parts. The missing links tends to a more variable S, due to some of the unrefined sub-states, due to local genetic/protein changes, adding a wild card, until it is stabilized. Then we advance another step; S=K2. We have apes and then humans but no S=constant between. Physics may be modeling missing links; exceptions instead of the rule. The rules make this all more logical.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
As far as a singularity, if we apply Special Relativity, and you traveled at the speed of light, the modern universe would appear contracted to a singularity; point-instant. The universe didn't actually become a point-instant because you are in motion, but rather, this would appear as a relativistic reference illusion. An actual singularity does not contain velocity or Special Relativity; SR. but rather a singularity would be more a pure artifact of General Relativity; GR, based on mass at infinite density, with density defined as density=mass/(d=0+)3

If we had a purely mass based singularity expanding, since mass-density is spreading out, according to GR, space-time will expand. This creates relative motion between various components and relativity velocity. This will cause your space-time reference to see the universe appear to contracts, as it expands. Conceptually, the universe might appear to expand slower than it actually is. Our earth is a relative reference; SR, since we are part of the universal relative motion and not the center of the universe.
Word salad, yum.

Entropy is constant for any given state.
Well **** me, that's almost right! However, it's rather difficult to stay in one state in a dynamic system, however.

S has nothing to do with statistics.
But the second law of thermodynamics, that states that it increases with time, does.

That is a problem created by physics, They call -TS, entropy.
No, they do not.

If you take any system, with lots of components and interactions, the entropy will be a constant. If dig into the weeds, inside that state, there are a lot of things going on at the quantum level. However, as random those may be or appear to be, these always add to a constant entropy, for that state. When we measure entropy in the lab it is a reproducible constant. What I read in physics is word salad.
Yeah, well, the problem is that you seem to live in a fantasy world all of your own, in which word salad is sense and sense is word salad. Try taking an actual course in some basic science, and stop pretending that you know things you are clearly totally ignorant about.

To model the primordial atom or singularity...
Nobody in cosmology takes the singularity seriously and calling it a "primordial atom" is just comical.

...it does not matter what is going at the quantum level, the sum of all that is going on, known or unknown. begins with a constant entropy. To increase entropy, we need free energy to be absorbed, due to free energy, G=H-TS. This can occur via H, with T=0; more hefty sub particles. We can build internal energy or enthalpy into the singularity, even at absolute zero. This is H=TS, with G=0. This is a new state of higher constant entropy. If we add heat or T, the free energy increase gives energy to -TS, and this can cause S to increase into a new state of constant entropy.
Scientifically illiterate gibberish. The equation couldn't be less relevant, and if you actually track right back to the singularity, then things like T will go infinite, while H = U + pV (U - internal energy, p - pressure, V - volume) will cease to make any sense because p will be infinite, V will be infinite or zero (depending on if you think space is infinite or not) and p will be infinite.

Things going to infinity and no making sense any more is pretty much what a singularity is. That's why nobody takes it seriously.

What on Earth do you think you are going to do with the free energy equation in this situation anyway, even if it wasn't meaningless at a singularity?

This is useful for evolution. We see distinct species, but not much in the way of missing links.
Completely changing the subject and patently untrue, to boot. Do you know anything about anything at all?

The distinct species are stable entropic states where the entire critter has S=constant, no matter the complexity of the parts. The missing links tends to a more variable S, due to some of the unrefined sub-states, due to local genetic/protein changes, adding a wild card, until it is stabilized. Then we advance another step; S=K2. We have apes and then humans but no S=constant between. Physics may be modeling missing links; exceptions instead of the rule. The rules make this all more logical.
Rounding off with more meaningless gibbering.

Stop trying to sell snake oil. Nobody's buying.
 
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blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Creation and Evolution are the same thing are they not?
Not quite.

It appears that the Big Bang, marking the beginning ('creation') of our universe happened something like 14 bn years ago. Our solar system formed about 4.5 billion years ago, including of course the sun and our earth. There is evidence to show that the earliest life on earth appeared more than 3.5 billion years ago, Subsequently bacteria in the oceans using photosynthesis slowly but steadily across perhaps two billion years gave us our oxygen / nitrogen atmosphere, leading to the Cambrian explosion as larger and larger complex life became possible.

Gods evolve too. We don't know when where or who the first gods worshiped on earth were, but archaeological evidence in Turkey indicates that by about 10,000 BCE there were religious practices. Gods are found around from about 7500 BCE in Çatalhöyük in Turkey, by 5000 BCE in Egypt and Mesopotamia. The earliest archaeological evidence of the god of the bible dates to about 1500 BCE. That god appears to been fairly typical of the Canaanite pantheon, and to have had a consort, Asherah, as was usual in that culture. By the time the Torah was written, she's no longer in evidence. Up to the time Isaiah was written, the bible God was henotheistic, not monotheistic. [He] didn't become the only God until the end the Babylonian captivity. In the 1st century CE [he] divides into the Jewish god and the Christian god, one major difference difference being the renouncing of the covenant of circumcision. In the 4th century the Christian god evolves into the Triune god. And [he]'s still evolving, In the late 18th century [he] started to disapprove of slavery, in the 20th century [he] slowly came to accept divorce, and in the present century [he]'s slowly coming to accept the varieties of human sexuality. Such modifications are necessary, of course, because a god must keep [his] congregation or cease to exist.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
If asking for evidence is considered anti-science, then I guess I am anti-science.
On the other hand I thought that was what science was supposed to do.

Give me the evidence you have that there was something that existed at T=0.
Intentional 'arguing from ignorance' based on a religious agenda. No one will absolutely ever know the origin of our physical existence. This does not justify your fanatical religious based objections to science. Actually by the present knowledge of science. Quantum Mechanics does have possible explanation of the origin and existence of the singularity based on GR and Quantum Mechanics.

We have direct observations of singularities forming growing and merging in our universe by the GR and Quantum Mechanics, This is part of the basis for the Hawkins/Penrose cyclic universe.

Before T=0 the singularity formed and existed,

The singularity that is the origin of our universe could have formed by the progressive merging of black holes as has been observed in our universe now.

A singularity is a point where space and time stop to exist as we know them, and the laws of physics cannot be applied. Singularities can form in a few different ways:

  • Stellar collapse
    When a star with a mass greater than 30 times the sun's collapses under its own gravity, it shrinks into a single point. This is because the star's gravity is so strong that it overcomes all other forces.

  • Big Bang
    Modern theory suggests that the universe began as a singularity at the moment of the Big Bang.

  • Mathematical function
    In mathematics, a singularity is a point where a function is undefined, such as when dividing by zero.

  • Technological singularity
    Some speculate that a technological singularity could occur through the augmentation of human intelligence through bioengineering, genetic engineering, and other methods.
Enjoy the BBT
Enjoy clinging to ancient tribal worldviews without science.
 
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metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I thought the Bible was a pretty good science book.
It tell me things about creation that no scientist has ever dreamed about.

It tells me how I got here.
It tells me that I came into the universe from my mothers womb.

It tells me why I am here.
That I am here to make a decision of whether I want to spend eternity with God or not, and to serve Him bringing Him glory.

It tells me that I am going to live forever somewhere.
It tell me I am created in His image which means I am an eternal being and my spirit will live forever.

It has a lot of information about the universe, and mankind.
It tells me mankind is prone to evil things and must choose between good and evil. Some are a lot worse than others.

It tells me things that science has discovered in the past 100 years.
It tells me that the life of the flesh is in the blood. Scientific fact.
It tells me that a day lasts from sunrise to sunrise.
It tells me the universe had a beginning to exist. Although I believe it has eternally existed in some form. (Energy)
It tells me the universe is going to melt with fervent heat.

That is enough reasons but I could come up with a lot more, but nobody would want to hear them.

Enjoy,
The above is called "spamming" and is in violation of RF rules as you posted this to me before word-got-word.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
If the universe were to reach equilibrium, it would mean that all energy is evenly distributed, and no thermodynamic free energy would be available to sustain processes that increase entropy. This state is often referred to as the heat death or Big Freeze of the universe.

That was not my idea, Lord Kelvin (William Thomson) proposed it in the 1850s, he extrapolated the principles of thermodynamics of the second law to the entire universe.

Enjoy
It is meaningless to propose Lord Kelvin science over 250 years old science. This nonetheless is an option for the fate of our universe, which is of course one of many accepted possibilities, which represents as you indicated are unknowns in any absolute sense. I is also possibility that our universe is cyclic or part of many universes in a multiverse,

Again, again and again . . . your argument of justifying a religious agenda based on unknowns is meaningless.

Enjoy your clinging to your ancient tribal agenda without science.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Which one of those hypotheses has reached the level of a theory in the scientific community.
The first basic conclusion of our science is our universe is based on Natural Laws and processes. My belief is that God Created our physical existence and the Natural Laws and processes. An important element of all hypothesis is our universe is only part of a greater Quantum existence, our universe is expanding, most likely from a singularity, and possibly a cyclic universe or part of a multiverse, The Hawkins/Penrose hypothesis is widely accepted in Physics and Cosmology.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Which one of those hypotheses has reached the level of a theory in the scientific community.
The first basic conclusion of our science is our universe is based on Natural Laws and processes. My belief is that God Created our physical existence and the Natural Laws and processes. An important element of all hypothesis is our universe is only part of a greater Quantum existence, our universe is expanding, most likely from a singularity, and possibly a cyclic universe or part of a multiverse, The Hawkins/Penrose hypothesis is widely accepted in Physics and Cosmology.
 

icant

Member
Nobody is suggesting existence from non-existence (you're still stuck in the 19th century view of time) and life from non-life happened somehow, we have the evidence for that.
Maybe, My definition of time. Time is a concept figured out by mankind to measure the amount of duration in existence between events. It is based on the duration the earth takes to rotate one time in relation to the sun, The math is based on base 60 that was invented by the Shumerians. I do not see time as some kind of entity.

There is either existence or non-existence. I exist.
There is either Life or non-life. I exist and am alive.
According to science there was neither before T=0 as nothing existed there.
I quoted it myself because it quite clearly doesn't say what you claimed. To claim it says that the Earth is spherical or the universe is expanding is obviously reading things into it that simply aren't there.
So I have wasted 60 years of my life studying Hebrew.
The English language was not around when Isaiah was alive. All he had was Biblical Hebrew and he explained things as he envisioned them. When the translators came along and translated the Hebrew into English, they used their knowledge and chose the best English word they had at the time.

But Isaiah had enough that they translated the phrase as: "He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth"
Does the earth have a circle at the equator?

This according to Copilot: The equator is a circle of latitude that divides a spheroid such as Earth, into the Northern and Southern hemispheres. On Earth, the Equator is an imaginary line located at 0 degrees latitude about 40,075 km (24,901 mi) in circumference, halfway between the North and South Poles. The term can also be used for any other celestial body that is roughly spherical.

So since there is a circle around the earth God shouldn't have any problem sitting on that circle.

So you don't believe that energy is transported through the blood to the cells that make up your body?
That's not what the passage says.

No it does not but it does say: "the life of the flesh is in the blood".
Lo and behold we have discovered that the life of the flesh is in the blood.
Energy and oxygen is needed for our cells to survive, and we have discovered that is accomplished through the blood system.

What's hilarious is that you think the bible says these things.
I don't think it says that I know it says:
# 1 "The life of the flesh is in the blood. A proven scientific fact.
Isa 40:22
It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
# 2 " he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth" Fact Earth has a circle at the Equator".
# 3 "out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:" The heaven is in a continuing state of being stretched out. The universe is expanding.
When people thought the universe was basically static, I don't recall all the bible scholars telling everybody they were wrong, and it must actually be expanding, because of Isaiah 40:22. :laughing:
Most Bible teachers I won't call them scholars because they messed the entire creation story by taking the words of Ellen White and her dreams while in a comma and ran with them. Coming up with a 6,000 year old earth. From which the YEC's began to exist.

Enjoy,
 

icant

Member
That is called "special pleading" - in other words, I haven't a clue but my god doesn't have a beginning BUT you have to explain how your universe started.

Matches up with what Science is trying to do with the ;BBT don't it?

Enjoy,
 
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