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On Evolution & Creation

icant

Member
Intentional 'arguing from ignorance' based on a religious agenda. No one will absolutely ever know the origin of our physical existence. This does not justify your fanatical religious based objections to science.

At 85 in a few days, I believe I will have the answers to my questions or I will be cremated and and never know I was wrong.
We have direct observations of singularities forming growing and merging in our universe by the GR and Quantum Mechanics, This is part of the basis for the Hawkins/Penrose cyclic universe.
What is your definition of a singularity?

Before T=0 the singularity formed and existed,
But there was non existence before T=0.

According to Hawking's teaching, The Theory of General Relativity breaks down as you approach T=0 breaks down and can not tell you anything at all.
There has never been a Theory proposed and accepted as a Theory that can break through that mathematical wall.

Enjoy,
That is the reason for my question about the energy that was required to create the universe in the first place came from.

According to Copilot: A singularity is indeed a point where the Theory of General Relativity breaks down. In a singularity, densities become infinite, and the gravitational field becomes infinitely strong, leading to a breakdown of the laws of physics as we currently understand them.

This is why the concept of a singularity is so challenging and why physicists are looking for a theory that can unify General Relativity with Quantum Mechanics. Such a theory, often referred to as quantum gravity, would help us understand the conditions at the singularity and potentially what happened at or before ( T = 0 ).

The search for a unified theory is ongoing, and while we have some promising candidates like string theory and loop quantum gravity, we don’t yet have a complete understanding. It’s an exciting area of research that could one day provide answers to these profound questions.
 

icant

Member
The first basic conclusion of our science is our universe is based on Natural Laws and processes. My belief is that God Created our physical existence and the Natural Laws and processes. An important element of all hypothesis is our universe is only part of a greater Quantum existence, our universe is expanding, most likely from a singularity, and possibly a cyclic universe or part of a multiverse, The Hawkins/Penrose hypothesis is widely accepted in Physics and Cosmology.

I actually believe our universe exists in a much larger system than ours.

Enjoy,
 

Jimmy

King Phenomenon
I don't think there ever was a BB to begin with. I believe a book that I read in 1949 at 9 years of age, I believed it then and I haven't changed my mind since then.

Quote: Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning created God the Heavens and the Earth" That is the proper translation of the Hebrew as the verb is before the subject of the verb.

When was the beginning? No one knows. But I believe it was a very long time ago although is had only one period of light that ended when the dark period that is found at Genesis 1:2 began to exist as it was also created by God.

Enjoy,
I know when the beginning was. When I was created in 1979 at the age of 5 yrs old with all the rest of existence. When I die everything will return to that day to be lived again.
 

Jimmy

King Phenomenon
Intentional 'arguing from ignorance' based on a religious agenda. No one will absolutely ever know the origin of our physical existence. This does not justify your fanatical religious based objections to science. Actually by the present knowledge of science. Quantum Mechanics does have possible explanation of the origin and existence of the singularity based on GR and Quantum Mechanics.

We have direct observations of singularities forming growing and merging in our universe by the GR and Quantum Mechanics, This is part of the basis for the Hawkins/Penrose cyclic universe.

Before T=0 the singularity formed and existed,

The singularity that is the origin of our universe could have formed by the progressive merging of black holes as has been observed in our universe now.

A singularity is a point where space and time stop to exist as we know them, and the laws of physics cannot be applied. Singularities can form in a few different ways:

  • Stellar collapse
    When a star with a mass greater than 30 times the sun's collapses under its own gravity, it shrinks into a single point. This is because the star's gravity is so strong that it overcomes all other forces.

  • Big Bang
    Modern theory suggests that the universe began as a singularity at the moment of the Big Bang.

  • Mathematical function
    In mathematics, a singularity is a point where a function is undefined, such as when dividing by zero.

  • Technological singularity
    Some speculate that a technological singularity could occur through the augmentation of human intelligence through bioengineering, genetic engineering, and other methods.

Enjoy clinging to ancient tribal worldviews without science.
The origin of our physical existence is me. No religion or science involved. Only factual reality.
 
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Altfish

Veteran Member
Matches up with what Science is trying to do with the ;BBT don't it?

Enjoy,
Not at all, scientists are happy to say "We don't know".
The Big Bang explains what is happening to the Universe, it doesn't explain what happened before the Big Bang, there are ideas, but nothing proven.
Oh, "God did it" is not a satisfactory answer.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
My definition of time.
Is totally irrelevant. Science has an extremely well tested theory of (space-)time.

According to science there was neither before T=0 as nothing existed there.
No. According to science, we don't know what happened at "T=0", but if time started then, there was no before for there to be nothing. Something has existed at every point in time, even if time began at "T=0".

So since there is a circle around the earth God shouldn't have any problem sitting on that circle.
It doesn't say anything about a globe. It just says circle. It's seriously hilarious to watch people trying to bash modern science into their favorite "holy book".
iu
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
At 85 in a few days, I believe I will have the answers to my questions or I will be cremated and and never know I was wrong.

What is your definition of a singularity?
The black holes in our universe are observed Black Holes.

To understand what a singularity is, imagine the force of gravity compressing you down into an infinitely tiny point, so that you occupy literally no volume. That sounds impossible … and it is. These "singularities" are found in the centers of black holes and at the beginning of the Big Bang. These singularities don't represent something physical. Rather, when they appear in mathematics, they are telling us that our theories of physics are breaking down, and we need to replace them with a better understanding.


What is a singularity?​

Singularities can happen anywhere, and they are surprisingly common in the mathematics that physicists use to understand the universe. Put simply, singularities are places where the mathematics "misbehave," typically by generating infinitely large values. There are examples of mathematical singularities throughout physics: Typically, any time an equation uses 1/X, as X goes to zero, the value of the equation goes to infinity.


Most of these singularities, however, can usually be resolved by pointing out that the equations are missing some factor, or noting the physical impossibility of ever reaching the singularity point. In other words, they are probably not "real."



But there was non existence before T=0.
Science does not remotely propose that there was non-existence before T=0. A Quantum world with Quantum Gravity existed existed before T=0 where a singularity formed that began the expansion of our universe,
According to Hawking's teaching, The Theory of General Relativity breaks down as you approach T=0 breaks down and can not tell you anything at all.
There has never been a Theory proposed and accepted as a Theory that can break through that mathematical wall.
There are theories are proposed like the Hawkins/Penrose hypothesis and others are accepted theories that explain our present knowledge of the the observed existence and origins of singularities we see as Black Holes and singularity that formed our universe.. You are still arguing from ignorance' in circles, which is a fallacy demanding that scientific theories must explain everything now to be valid based on your religious agenda.
Enjoy,
That is the reason for my question about the energy that was required to create the universe in the first place came from.
The current knowledge describes Quantum Mechanics as properties of a Quantum World with Quantum Gravity as the origin of the singularity at T=0.
According to Copilot: A singularity is indeed a point where the Theory of General Relativity breaks down. In a singularity, densities become infinite, and the gravitational field becomes infinitely strong, leading to a breakdown of the laws of physics as we currently understand them.
True, this what is directly observed as properties of the Black Holes that we see forming in our universe. ,
This is why the concept of a singularity is so challenging and why physicists are looking for a theory that can unify General Relativity with Quantum Mechanics. Such a theory, often referred to as quantum gravity, would help us understand the conditions at the singularity and potentially what happened at or before ( T = 0 ).
Yes, it is challenging and their are many unanswered questions, but your fanatical demanding explanations for the current limits of the knowledge is unreasonable.
The search for a unified theory is ongoing, and while we have some promising candidates like string theory and loop quantum gravity, we don’t yet have a complete understanding. It’s an exciting area of research that could one day provide answers to these profound questions.

It is obvious we do not have a complete understanding and may never completely resolve all the questions of the origins of our universe and all possible universes, and the nature of singularities, but we have Black Holes we can directly observe that can in the future give us a better understanding of the nature of singularities. This does not detract from the increasing knowledge of the nature and history of our universe as it is.

Concerning the subject of the thread, the fallacious 'arguing from ignorance' based on a religious agenda extends to the problem of questioning the sciences of evolution based on challenging the hypothesis of abiogenesis, because our scientific knowledge is incomplete concerning abiogenesis. This unfortunate religious agenda neglects the facts that the sciences of evolution of our evolution of life have been demonstrated as the sciences of the history of life beyond any possible doubt. Actually much is known concerning abiogenesis such as when and where the abiogenesis took place in the early history of our earth. Yes there are many unanswered questions as to how abiogenesis took place.
 
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icant

Member
Not at all, scientists are happy to say "We don't know".
The Big Bang explains what is happening to the Universe, it doesn't explain what happened before the Big Bang, there are ideas, but nothing proven.
If scientists are so happy to say "We don't know", why would it take seven years of arguing to get one particular scientist to say "we don't know"?

The Big Bang is supposedly when the universe began to exist. Anything that happened after 380,000 years could very well be what we know the history of the universe.

Anything prior to 380,000 years cannot be seen and is just imagined by someone.

Enjoy,
 
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icant

Member
Is totally irrelevant. Science has an extremely well tested theory of (space-)time.
What is spacetime>?
It is the concept that was first proposed by the mathematician Hermann Minkowski in 1908, to prop up Einstein's special theory of relativity.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
If scientists are so happy to say "We don't know", why would it take seven years of arguing to get one particular scientist to say "we don't know"?
Scientists say that they don't know about lots of things all the time. If scientists knew everything, there would be no need for science. It would stop.

The Big Bang is supposedly when the universe began to exist.
The "Big Bang Theory" is not about the start.

What is spacetime>?
It is the concept that was first proposed by the mathematician Hermann Minkowski in 1908, to prop up Einstein's special theory of relativity.
It didn't need propping up. Minkowski space-time is 'flat', i.e. without gravity. General Relativity extends the idea so that the geometry of space-time varies from point to point ('curvature'), which is what gravity is.

This theory has been tested extensively by experiment and observation and is required to make the GPS system work.
 

icant

Member
No. According to science, we don't know what happened at "T=0", but if time started then, there was no before for there to be nothing. Something has existed at every point in time, even if time began at "T=0".
Time does not exist without existence. If there was a point that time began to exist it had to be in existence as it is what measures the duration of existence between, the events taking place in existence. If there was no events taking place at T=0 to measure the duration between why would time exist?

You can not measure time. If you can please explain how you do it.
For time to be an entity that you can measure It would need to have length, width, and height. Hawking proposed that it was vertical and he called it imaginary time.
It doesn't say anything about a globe. It just says circle. It's seriously hilarious to watch people trying to bash modern science into their favorite "holy book".

It just says He sits on the circle of the earth. Why would Isaiah have to mention a Globe God was not sitting on the earth, His throne is in the Mother Universe.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Time does not exist without existence.
That's what I said. So, if (we don't know one way or the other) it had a start, there can't be 'nothing' 'before' because 'before' wouldn't have a meaning.

You can not measure time. If you can please explain how you do it.
That's what clocks are for.

For time to be an entity that you can measure It would need to have length, width, and height.
Yep. And together we have (drum roll...) space-time.

Hawking proposed that it was vertical and he called it imaginary time.
No. The Hawking 'imaginary time' was a part of his 'no boundary' proposal, which involved time becoming imaginary—in the mathematical sense, i.e. multiplying by √(-1)—near to the BB. Mathematically, imaginary time would look like another spacial dimension, so the very 'start' would be smoothed out into a region of 4-dimensional space, rather than space-time.

It just says He sits on the circle of the earth. Why would Isaiah have to mention a Globe God was not sitting on the earth, His throne is in the Mother Universe.
Which means you cannot tell from the passage that the world is not flat and circular.
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
If scientists are so happy to say "We don't know", why would it take seven years of arguing to get one particular scientist to say "we don't know"?

The Big Bang is supposedly when the universe began to exist. Anything that happened after 380,000 years could very well be what we know the history of the universe.

Anything prior to 380,000 years cannot be seen and is just imagined by someone.

Enjoy,
Wrong, please read up about the Big Bang, and not in Answers in Genesis.
Why 380,000 years?
Do you understand that the Universe is still expanding? Scientists have extrapolated that in reverse to estimate the beginning.
 

icant

Member
The black holes in our universe are observed Black Holes.
Has one ever exploded and built a universe?
To understand what a singularity is, imagine the force of gravity compressing you down into an infinitely tiny point, so that you occupy literally no volume. That sounds impossible … and it is. These "singularities" are found in the centers of black holes and at the beginning of the Big Bang. These singularities don't represent something physical. Rather, when they appear in mathematics, they are telling us that our theories of physics are breaking down, and we need to replace them with a better understanding.
But gravity did not exist at T=0.
It requires mass and there was no mass there.
Most of these singularities, however, can usually be resolved by pointing out that the equations are missing some factor, or noting the physical impossibility of ever reaching the singularity point. In other words, they are probably not "real."
Isn't that what I said the math don't work. So actually, it is only a mathematical hiccup and not a real entity that could produce anything.
Science does not remotely propose that there was non-existence before T=0. A Quantum world with Quantum Gravity existed existed before T=0 where a singularity formed that began the expansion of our universe,

I know there was existence before Time began to exist and you seem to know that also.
But Science says there is no time and existence prior to T=0. A;lthough they have been trying furiously to find a way to say there was.
The current knowledge describes Quantum Mechanics as properties of a Quantum World with Quantum Gravity as the origin of the singularity at T=0.
Assumptions and imagination may do that but not a Theory of Quantum Gravity.
True, this what is directly observed as properties of the Black Holes that we see forming in our universe. ,
But that is not what a singularity is. A singularity is a place where the Theory of Relativity breaks down and the math can not give any answers. Copilot can only give me what it can find on the internet.

Yes, it is challenging and their are many unanswered questions, but your fanatical demanding explanations for the current limits of the knowledge is unreasonable.
But I am running out of time. Old man death is going to soon come for me.:confused:
Yes there are many unanswered questions as to how abiogenesis took place.
And they will remain until mankind gets the blinders off their eyes, and brains.
 

icant

Member
The "Big Bang Theory" is not about the start.
Well blow my socks off, I have always been told the universe began to exist at the BB and continued until today., and the BB Theory covers the happening's pretty well.
This theory has been tested extensively by experiment and observation and is required to make the GPS system work.

You mean because clocks run differently at different distances from the force of gravity that affects them.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Has one ever exploded and built a universe?
No, and no one has built a planet, a star or a galaxy. What is your point?!?!?!

But gravity did not exist at T=0.
It requires mass and there was no mass there.
False, you are perpetually making circular false assumptions of Physics and Cosmology.


According to our current understanding of physics, a singularity is considered to have "infinite mass" concentrated at a single point in space, meaning its mass is not a finite value but is theoretically infinite due to its infinitely high density at zero volume; however, this concept is considered a limitation of our current theories as true infinities likely don't exist in the real world.



Isn't that what I said the math don't work. So actually, it is only a mathematical hiccup and not a real entity that could produce anything.
No that is not what you said, but you are making more false misleading assumptions concerning the nature of singularities, and the problems of math and Physics, Terrible case of a religious agenda arguing from ignorance again, gain and again.
I know there was existence before Time began to exist and you seem to know that also.
But Science says there is no time and existence prior to T=0.
Yes, there was not space-time as we know it in a space time universe. There would be Quantum time and gravity.

A;lthough they have been trying furiously to find a way to say there was.
Bizarre and misleading statement at best.
Assumptions and imagination may do that but not a Theory of Quantum Gravity.
False:
Quantum Gravity is a well known/

Quantum gravity (QG) is a field of theoretical physics that seeks to describe gravity according to the principles of quantum mechanics. It deals with environments in which neither gravitational nor quantum effects can be ignored,[1] such as in the vicinity of black holes or similar compact astrophysical objects, such as neutron stars,[2] as well as in the early stages of the universe moments after the Big Bang.[3]

Three of the four fundamental forces of nature are described within the framework of quantum mechanics and quantum field theory: the electromagnetic interaction, the strong force, and the weak force; this leaves gravity as the only interaction that has not been fully accommodated. The current understanding of gravity is based on Albert Einstein's general theory of relativity, which incorporates his theory of special relativity and deeply modifies the understanding of concepts like time and space. Although general relativity is highly regarded for its elegance and accuracy, it has limitations: the gravitational singularities inside black holes, the ad hoc postulation of dark matter, as well as dark energy and its relation to the cosmological constant are among the current unsolved mysteries regarding gravity,[4] all of which signal the collapse of the general theory of relativity at different scales and highlight the need for a gravitational theory that goes into the quantum realm. At distances close to the Planck length, like those near the center of a black hole, quantum fluctuations of spacetime are expected to play an important role.[5] Finally, the discrepancies between the predicted value for the vacuum energy and the observed values (which, depending on considerations, can be of 60 or 120 orders of magnitude)[6][7] highlight the necessity for a quantum theory of gravity.

Quantum gravity (QG) is a field of theoretical physics that seeks to describe gravity according to the principles of quantum mechanics. It deals with environments in which neither gravitational nor quantum effects can be ignored,[1] such as in the vicinity of black holes or similar compact astrophysical objects, such as neutron stars,[2] as well as in the early stages of the universe moments after the Big Bang.[3]

Three of the four fundamental forces of nature are described within the framework of quantum mechanics and quantum field theory: the electromagnetic interaction, the strong force, and the weak force; this leaves gravity as the only interaction that has not been fully accommodated. The current understanding of gravity is based on Albert Einstein's general theory of relativity, which incorporates his theory of special relativity and deeply modifies the understanding of concepts like time and space. Although general relativity is highly regarded for its elegance and accuracy, it has limitations: the gravitational singularities inside black holes, the ad hoc postulation of dark matter, as well as dark energy and its relation to the cosmological constant are among the current unsolved mysteries regarding gravity,[4] all of which signal the collapse of the general theory of relativity at different scales and highlight the need for a gravitational theory that goes into the quantum realm. At distances close to the Planck length, like those near the center of a black hole, quantum fluctuations of spacetime are expected to play an important role.[5] Finally, the discrepancies between the predicted value for the vacuum energy and the observed values (which, depending on considerations, can be of 60 or 120 orders of magnitude)[6][7] highlight the necessity for a quantum theory of gravity.
But that is not what a singularity is. A singularity is a place where the Theory of Relativity breaks down and the math can not give any answers. Copilot can only give me what it can find on the internet.
More nonsense
But I am running out of time. Old man death is going to soon come for me.:confused:

And they will remain until mankind gets the blinders off their eyes, and brains.
Huh!?!?!?! You have time to acquire some real knowledge of science if you wish instead of a warped view of science based on an ancient tribal agenda.
 
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