ONCE AGAIN! Facts in the Bible is supported by archaeology.

[Father Heathen]

Who are y'all talking about?
I've never heard anybody with any credibility say anything like that.

Actually, I don't think I've ever heard anybody say that at all.

Are you guys sure that anybody ever claimed this? Or did some Christian website claim that somebody said it, and you just believed them?
Tom

This guy said it:

 

[Bear Wild]

Yeah, same as General Hannibal and his elephants.
Some things are just too fantastic to believe.

So you do not believe that Hannibal actually used elephants?

 

[PruePhillip]

So you do not believe that Hannibal actually used elephants?

Look, two Romans wrote of Hannibal.
Sounded as fantastic as some of those biblical stories.
Africans invading Rome from the North with elephants,
sending an army across the Alps.

Scholars don't believe the Jews were slaves in Egypt
so why do they believe in Hannibal?

 

[dfnj]

Pontius Pilate’s ring may have been discovered at ancient biblical fortress

Just another nail that keeps appearing again and again.

It's amazing, to me, how the information in the Gospels and letters are supported by facts that are discovered.

No one has ever doubted the Romans were real.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

It's amazing, to me, how the information in the Gospels and letters are supported by facts that are discovered.

That's great. What does it prove about the gospel stories, though? What you need is a nice diary entry:
"Ok, so Caesar's on me 24/7 and it's like I can do nothing right and mah boys picked up this hick named Josh who just kept on and on, disturbing the peace: I mean, how can I get any torture and exploitation done when he makes so much racket? So I nailed him to a couple of 2x4's and I hired some guards and WHAT DO THEY DO? THEY HAD ONE JOB! For the love of Mars, you just can't get good help these days."

We want to make the Bible history. Many people think it has to be history or nothing. But there is no word for history in the Hebrew Bible.

Which is weird, since hardly any of us are even descendants of the audience of the Hebrew Bible. It's like a European with no ties to China trying to prove the Jade Emperor is real.

Why all the mocking of those who believe?

A house built on sand will crumble in a storm, says Jesus. Many beliefs are based on shoddy craftsmanship and "reality" sets in and the house falls and church attendance is dropping like a lead ball.

like Josephus, who also wrote about Jesus

Not really. He writes about Christians, who believed in Jesus. That's different.

There are 2 billion + Christians in the world, quite a few.,

Yes, and there's 7 billion people on the planet, which means most of the people aren't Christian.

Math is fun.

Or by the bible getting a few things right? Egypt,
say. Or the existence of swords. They could hardly
have gotten all their simple facts wrong.

It's like when they say it's a miracle Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a donkey. No, it'd be a miracle if he drove there in a car.

whether the
Canaanites were overthrown by the invading Jews

A. They weren't.
B. Jews didn't exist yet. They were Canaanites, then Hebrews, then Israelites, THEN Jews.

whether Jerusalem
was the cultic and administrative center of the Jews

Israel claims it should have "it's" land, but if you go to a wiki page where it lists their major cities, you realize hardly any of them actually were founded by Hebrews/Israelites/Jews. If we were to go with who should own the land, we should look up the people with Canaanite DNA and put them there.

Look at the source links. Fox is merely copy/paste reporting of an existing report.

Yeah, but I've seen the headlines for many about that ring. Most put "may" or "might" in the title but I noted the Fox one acted like it was definitely the real deal.

In Jesus times, it was Roman empire (ie the whole world was taxed)

Given that Romans dealt with others, like Indians (from India) and Chinese and such, how could they possibly say the Roman Empire was the entire world? They didn't own those other two.

Some translations say "Roman world" so that it will make sense. But Luke didn't write that.

That makes Luke an idiot, though. Rome didn't even own Palestine all the time. Syrians owned it too off and on. Pretty much the people who owned that land the LEAST were Jews.

Of course you know that the ruins of Troy were found by Schlieman because he took Homer literally, don´t you ?

Did they find the golden apple of discord? That was a huge catalyst in the story.

Secondly I am find with Luke being the author of Luke and the Acts, and John being the
author of John plus the letters.

Did you grade their papers in school? Any teacher can recognize a student's handwriting, so is that how you know they wrote those texts?

How did Jacob know this?
How did Isaiah know there would be TWO returns of the Jews to Israel,
and at a time when there hadn't been ONE exile?
How did Moses know the Jews would always be "few in number" despite
being quite numerous at the time?
How did Abraham know the Jews would be a blessing to the world?
I could go on...

Jacob used trickery to get an undeserved blessing. He's not someone you should trust.

Isaiah - Wikipedia
The point being:

Another widely-held view is that parts of the first half of the book (chapters 1–39) originated with the historical prophet, interspersed with prose commentaries written in the time of King Josiah a hundred years later, and that the remainder of the book dates from immediately before and immediately after the end of the exile in Babylon, almost two centuries after the time of the historic prophet.

The bible inflates the numbers of Hebrews. He can't be talking about Jews because that would be an anachronistic title, which makes sense, because Moses didn't write it. If you read about King Josiah, you start to realize that most of the OT can only have been written during the monarchy period.

Abraham can't know anything about Jews. He was Chaldean if he existed at all.

And, quite frankly, I don't mean to be rude but Judaism has never been "world-shaking" by any stretch of the imagination. They were a group of nomads, then a short-lived kingdom of a few towns, and then exiled for pretty much the rest of history until recently, when a bunch of anti-Semitic governments figured out that they could get rid of their Jews by convincing them that God wanted them to move out instead of just gassing them. And now it's run by a government that learned NOTHING about what happened to them in the 40s and have the same tired xenophobic nonsense going on that doomed the kingdom in the first place.

And if you read the 1948 and 1967 wars you can't help but feel that God blessed his people.

And if you read about the 40s you realize God is a really poor friend.

so why do they believe in Hannibal?

Biologists Find Possible Hannibal Route - Archaeology Magazine

How (and Where) Did Hannibal Cross the Alps? | History | Smithsonian

 

[PruePhillip]

A. They weren't.
B. Jews didn't exist yet. They were Canaanites, then Hebrews, then Israelites, THEN Jews.

Re "whether the Canaanites were overthrown by the invading Jews"

Yes, some Canaanite cities were violently overthrown in the 12th or 13th Century BC
and rebuilt as Jewish cities. Maybe during Josua's rule.
The Hebrews are Semitic. They came from Sumer (re Genesis)
Yes, they are related to other Semites. Doesn't mean a lot. There were all different
sorts of Semites. Even identical ones can go to war, ie Iraq and Kuwait.
Hebrews come from the line of Abraham. Their identity was forged in Egypt. When
they spoke of Canaanites they meant those people living in what is Palestine today.
Very different culturally. Some difference genetically. Some Canaanites were most
like extremely different as Canaan was a melting pot.

Not long ago some "scholars" (how I love that word!) claimed that Jewishness was
about religion, not race. DNA has proved that wrong. In fact, we even trace the line
of the Hebrews who belong to the tribe of Levite from the Aaronite priesthood. I find
that amazing.

 

[PruePhillip]

And if you read about the 40s you realize God is a really poor friend.
Biologists Find Possible Hannibal Route - Archaeology Magazine
How (and Where) Did Hannibal Cross the Alps? | History | Smithsonian

Re if you read the 1948 and 1967 wars you can't help but feel that God blessed his people.

And that's the amazing thing about the bible story. God delivered the Jews into the hands of
Babylon. Yet we read of God's deliverance in Ezra, Nehemia etc.
What does it say of the Jews being sent into exile? In Isaiah and Ezekiel, six hundred years
before it happened - that Israel will not know the time of its Visitation and they will be scattered
over the earth. Exile and slavery. Jesus said "Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles
until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled." And God would call the Jews out of countries that had
been their "graves."
So God was the destroyer, but He is also the Deliverer.

 

[PruePhillip]

Jacob used trickery to get an undeserved blessing. He's not someone you should trust.

Re: how did Jacob know this?

So Jacob, in Egypt, tricked his son Judah by saying

1. there would be a Hebrew nation
2. with a monarchy
3. and a law
4. but it would end
5. when the Messiah came
6. and the Messiah would be trusted by the world.

This is the Bronze Age, mind you. Two thousand
years before the Jesus and the destruction of the
Jewish nation.

 

[ChristineM]

Yes, it has to be "God magic" because no human could have written that.
Some try to explain it away by saying it was written in Babylonian times.
But Israel was yet to reject their Messiah and lose their nation for 2,000
years in Babylonian times.
Yes, the Palestine conflict is intractable. I think God made it that way.
And if you read the 1948 and 1967 wars you can't help but feel that God
blessed his people.

You have a very poor view of human imagination

Nope, the Israelis and Palestinians make it that way

What, america supplied isreal with superior arms so are you saying america is god?

 

[PruePhillip]

You have a very poor view of human imagination

Nope, the Israelis and Palestinians make it that way

What, america supplied isreal with superior arms so are you saying america is god?

So you are saying the Jacob "imagined" this prophecy?
Jacob probably had no idea why Judah had this "blessing"
of this prophecy, but Judah was the one who sought to
redeem his brother at the cost of his own life. That's a
picture of the Christ.

As an aside, though its irrelevant - Israel fought the war
of independence without American support. In 1967 the
USA did nothing to support Israel when it was challenged
by Egypt blocking international shipping.
But I think God supported Israel in those wars - too many
strange coincidences happened. In the 67 war Israel gained
the temple because Egypt controlled Jordan's army. And on
the day of the air strike the Egyptian air defenses had been
stood down due to a general's plan to visit all the air fields.
And Israel knew how to fight the new Soviet MIG because
an Iraqi defected to Israel with his MIG. And Syria delayed
it's war for several days, giving Israel a chance to defeat
Egypt. And so on, so on.

 

[ChristineM]

So you are saying the Jacob "imagined" this prophecy?
Jacob probably had no idea why Judah had this "blessing"
of this prophecy, but Judah was the one who sought to
redeem his brother at the cost of his own life. That's a
picture of the Christ.

As an aside, though its irrelevant - Israel fought the war
of independence without American support. In 1967 the
USA did nothing to support Israel when it was challenged
by Egypt blocking international shipping.
But I think God supported Israel in those wars - too many
strange coincidences happened. In the 67 war Israel gained
the temple because Egypt controlled Jordan's army. And on
the day of the air strike the Egyptian air defenses had been
stood down due to a general's plan to visit all the air fields.
And Israel knew how to fight the new Soviet MIG because
an Iraqi defected to Israel with his MIG. And Syria delayed
it's war for several days, giving Israel a chance to defeat
Egypt. And so on, so on.

There is no reason to believe it was anything other than imagination unless of course you can prove god turned up and told him all about it.

Military tactics are not any gods plan unless of course you consider bombing pregnant women and children to be part that plan. If so, you are welcome to your violent, murdering god.

 

[PruePhillip]

There is no reason to believe it was anything other than imagination unless of course you can prove god turned up and told him all about it.

Military tactics are not any gods plan unless of course you consider bombing pregnant women and children to be part that plan. If so, you are welcome to your violent, murdering god.

Lots of peripheral issues here.
You have to ask what chance is it that any prediction will come true.
And then ask how many predictions can you possibly get right.
If there's a one in a hundred chance Jacob got one prediction right,
and there's half a dozen predictions then the chances become
100x100x100x100x100x100, or ten with 12 zeros after it.

If you are referring to the current Palestinian issue with Hamas
then these are the facts:
Hamas deliberately targeted school buses, hospitals, schools
and the like for maximum shock.
Hamas hides it terror infrastructure inside schools and hospitals
and sends its own kids to fight the Israelis - so that when these
poor kids are hurt or killed it will make Israel look bad.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

We have evidence that Abraham Lincoln was a real person, therefore "Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter" is historically accurate. That's the basic argument in the OP.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Lots of peripheral issues here.
You have to ask what chance is it that any prediction will come true.
And then ask how many predictions can you possibly get right.
If there's a one in a hundred chance Jacob got one prediction right,
and there's half a dozen predictions then the chances become
100x100x100x100x100x100, or ten with 12 zeros after it.

If you are referring to the current Palestinian issue with Hamas
then these are the facts:
Hamas deliberately targeted school buses, hospitals, schools
and the like for maximum shock.
Hamas hides it terror infrastructure inside schools and hospitals
and sends its own kids to fight the Israelis - so that when these
poor kids are hurt or killed it will make Israel look bad.

As opposed to "us", who just bomb civilian dense targets from afar with impunity, and wash our our hands of any responsibility of the subsequent horrific carnage by calling it "collateral damage". It's almost as if we don't kill and maim innocent women and children at all!

 

[PruePhillip]

As opposed to "us", who just bomb civilian dense targets from afar with impunity, and wash our our hands of any responsibility of the subsequent horrific carnage by calling it "collateral damage". It's almost as if we don't kill and maim innocent women and children at all!

Well.... we did kill a few women and children in Nazi Germany.
And I suppose a lot of innocent Japanese women and children got it, too.
And maybe a few North Korean women and children died
And a few Viet Kong and North Vietnamese families died
Suppose a few families in Fascist Italy were lost

I can't imagine why America and Britain and Canada and Australia did this.

 

[PruePhillip]

We have evidence that Abraham Lincoln was a real person, therefore "Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter" is historically accurate. That's the basic argument in the OP.

We can safely assume that Jesus was an historic person.
We can be sure that King David was real because there was a "House of David"
Some of the prophet's names like Isaiah have turned up recently too.
But of course, the further back you go, the less evidence there is. Especially
when you are dealing with men and women who didn't glorify themselves with
great monuments.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Well.... we did kill a few women and children in Nazi Germany.
And I suppose a lot of innocent Japanese women and children got it, too.
And maybe a few North Korean women and children died
And a few Viet Kong and North Vietnamese families died
Suppose a few families in Fascist Italy were lost

I can't imagine why America and Britain and Canada and Australia did this.

Another attempt at a subject change? Nice try. We were talking about the current Middle East, not historical wars with much clearer justifications. If you want to discuss allied atrocities against civilians during aerial bombardments I'm happy to engage with you, although some sort of commitment from you that you won't change the subject whenever I raise an inconvenient or uncomfortable truth would be nice.

FYI, I'm directly responsible for at the very least one "collateral damage" civilian death, so I hope we can avoid any jingoistic appeals to nationalism or similar claims implying lack of understanding or "supporting of troops" and so on.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

We can safely assume that Jesus was an historic person.
We can be sure that King David was real because there was a "House of David"
Some of the prophet's names like Isaiah have turned up recently too.
But of course, the further back you go, the less evidence there is. Especially
when you are dealing with men and women who didn't glorify themselves with
great monuments.

I'm sure most historians would agree that many people mentioned in the Bible are "historic people". That's not the same as claiming that everything the Bible says about them is literal, historic fact, which seems to be the OP's argument.

 

[PruePhillip]

I'm sure most historians would agree that many people mentioned in the Bible are "historic people". That's not the same as claiming that everything the Bible says about them is literal, historic fact, which seems to be the OP's argument.

Agreed. But there's nuances to the argument.
We call all agree there was a Jesus - he's recorded by about
seven people.
But the next step is acknowledging that He did what these
writers said he did. And for this we have to acknowledge the
huge FAME he had, even in His own life time. Jesus wasn't
just another wise man.
And then there's the miracles. Some we can see for ourselves
in His prophecies about Israel and the Gentiles. Jesus' warning
about the destruction of Jerusalem for instance saved many
lives. His predictions about Jerusalem to this day have been
accurate. It's there for us all to see.

As I see it, one of the problems people have with the bible is the
EXPECTATION it has for people. Read Jesus Sermon on the
Mount - it's about YOUR responsibilities, not some pithy sayings
like the Dali Lama.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Agreed. But there's nuances to the argument.
We call all agree there was a Jesus - he's recorded by about
seven people.
But the next step is acknowledging that He did what these
writers said he did. And for this we have to acknowledge the
huge FAME he had, even in His own life time. Jesus wasn't
just another wise man.
And then there's the miracles. Some we can see for ourselves
in His prophecies about Israel and the Gentiles. Jesus' warning
about the destruction of Jerusalem for instance saved many
lives. His predictions about Jerusalem to this day have been
accurate. It's there for us all to see.

As I see it, one of the problems people have with the bible is the
EXPECTATION it has for people. Read Jesus Sermon on the
Mount - it's about YOUR responsibilities, not some pithy sayings
like the Dali Lama.

Jesus' "warning about Jerusalem saved lives"? That's a new one.